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Buck-O-Nine

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Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:42 pm

Running a half-marathon in 1:09 isn’t a prerequisite for running a marathon in 2:29. There’s no physiological reason one must precede the other. It’s not some sort of qualification standard that must be met. I’m sure there are hundreds of runners that have broken 2:30 without a PR in the half under 1:10.

Yet, for me, I need to run 1:09 before returning the marathon. If nothing else, it’s in my head that I need to have that kind of half-marathon speed in order to be comfortable running 5:44’s for 26.2 miles. Perhaps more importantly, I want to lower my half PR below this elusive threshold. It isn’t just a means to an end; it’s a barrier that I truly want to break. To do that, I know I need to focus on this distance, not just run it as a tune-up for the full.

To get there, I’m essentially re-doing my training plan from the spring of 2010. That year resulted in PR’s in the 8k (25:49), 10 mile (53:32) and half marathon (1:11:24). Those 4 months were the most fit I’ve felt in the last two years. I am confident I can get back to that level and beyond.

The format is simple: 8 weeks of base-building, with step-backs in weeks 4 and 8; 6 weeks of “speed” training, with reduced volume and a focus on short intervals and top end speed; and finally, 8 weeks of “stamina” training, focused on half marathon specific workouts. Some refer to this as the “inverted pyramid” approach, since the speed phase comes before the stamina phase. Whatever you call it, I’ve done it twice, and I know it works for me.

Along the way I plan on 4-6 tune-up races over the next 22 weeks. Right now the only one set in stone is the USATF XC Championships in St. Louis on February 11th. There’s a good possibility I place in the bottom 10%, but this race is beneficial for two reasons: (1) it’s something different that has me excited to get back to the grind; and (2) it will force me to train on hills for at least the base-building phase of the program. I’ve come to accept that hills are always a good thing. Other than that, I’ll likely target at least one 5k and 10k and would like to pick up a 10 miler as well.

So on the same day I turn 30, I begin my quest towards 1:09. Despite entering a new age group, I can promise you that after a very disappointing 2011, I’m as hungry as ever.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  healdgator on Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:49 pm

whew! I thought that was going to be your weight goal!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Chris M on Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:48 pm

Like the plan. So what is the official Half Marathon goal race? Pittsburgh? Indy?
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:00 pm

Like I said in the birthday thread, all my PRs came in my 30th year - 5k, 10K, 15K and half. Go for it! Have you thought about your goal race yet?
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  John Kilpatrick on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:51 pm

Good stuff Dave - go get it! I think it is awesome to challenge yourself with the USATF XC Championship and with the 1:09 goal. No sandbagging here I see... Good to see you pumped up - it is infectious!

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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:57 pm

How did I forgot to name the actual race? Yes, it's Pittsburgh. You in, McKee?
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  KBFitz on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:08 pm

Pittsburgh eh? Seems to me that Cherry Blossom Ten Mile run on April 1 would fit perfectly into that plan. Perhaps you've heard of it. I'll post a thread about the lottery entrance that is now open and closes this Friday.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Seth Harrison on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:27 pm

Good luck with the training plan and your HM quest Dave.
Hope you're having a great birthday!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:52 pm

@KBFitz wrote:Pittsburgh eh? Seems to me that Cherry Blossom Ten Mile run on April 1 would fit perfectly into that plan. Perhaps you've heard of it. I'll post a thread about the lottery entrance that is now open and closes this Friday.

I did just receive a complimentary entry in the mail....

It is on my "potential" list, but I think Chris is skipping town that weekend.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:59 pm

@healdgator wrote:whew! I thought that was going to be your weight goal!

I would never get laid.

@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Like I said in the birthday thread, all my PRs came in my 30th year - 5k, 10K, 15K and half. Go for it! Have you thought about your goal race yet?

In a day filled with lots of birthday wishes, this may be the best news of all.

@John Kilpatrick wrote:Good stuff Dave - go get it! I think it is awesome to challenge yourself with the USATF XC Championship and with the 1:09 goal. No sandbagging here I see... Good to see you pumped up - it is infectious!

No time to sandbag.

@Seth Harrison wrote:Good luck with the training plan and your HM quest Dave.
Hope you're having a great birthday!

Thanks Seth.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Chris M on Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:20 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@KBFitz wrote:Pittsburgh eh? Seems to me that Cherry Blossom Ten Mile run on April 1 would fit perfectly into that plan. Perhaps you've heard of it. I'll post a thread about the lottery entrance that is now open and closes this Friday.

I did just receive a complimentary entry in the mail....

It is on my "potential" list, but I think Chris is skipping town that weekend.

Sad but true that I am out of town for CB10 this year. Not that sad, really. We'll be in the Caribean.

But now I'm on this Pittsburgh thing....May 6....hmmm, after Boston but not a bad time to do a 13.1 mile jog while Dave crushes the course at sub 1:10 pace. Gotta talk to my buddy Scott who lives there to make sure he's in and free housing is covered.....but assuming that flies I'm in!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Jerry on Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:51 pm

Dave seeking a revenge and conviction of his training?

Jerry actually follows Dave's footsteps always and loves the idea. The more Jerry thinks about it, the more Jerry is convinced the idea to separate the training and racing, especially the marathon, which has too many factors. Jerry is convinced as an armature and if we trained right, we should be able to PR in one distance, any from 5k to marathon, if not all,to confirm we are on the right training track.

Go get it, Dave!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Diego on Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:20 pm

Thanks a lot Dave-O. I need to stay within 30 minutes of you on the marathon and 15 minutes of the half marathon to feel fulfilled.Suspect So now I am looking at 1:24--yikes!!Very Happy

Now that you are billing more hours, I think it's soon time to have your lactate threshold checked. Elites run marathons just below that threshold(88-92% VO2max) and as a result, only have a 3-6 minute difference between marathon and half marathon(x2) times. Maybe talk with MVW. He recently had his tested.

I think knowing exactly what your lactate levels are at different running paces(they can do that, too) is a worthwhile investment because you have been in such a PR rut. I think you will be able to train smarter, too.

BTW, where in Pittsburgh is the HM? The only time I was there(at the med center), I thought Pittsburgh was very hilly.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:49 pm

Pittsburgh is very hilly and those hills are in both the marathon and half, and you cross a number of bridges. Have you considered Cleveland or the Pig? I know the Cleveland course is almost as flat as anything in Chicago.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  pigoo on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:06 pm

@Dave-O wrote:Running a half-marathon in 1:09 isn’t a prerequisite for running a marathon in 2:29.

You're right Dave...our "buddy" (Coach McMillian) finish time calculator says "we" only need to run a 1:11:07 half-marathon to run a sub-2:30 marathon (2:29:59)...assuming the necessary marathon training of course! Wink

With a 1:09:59 half-marathon finish (which seems to be your current goal)...McMillians calculator indicates the potential for a 2:27:36!Smile I'm sure these figures are nothing new to you...I'm guessing you've "run the numbers" numerous times.Wink

Good luck with the training,Smile

- Nick
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Jerry on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:13 pm

Jerry thinks Dave should go to Eugene to show respect to Bowerman and Pre etc, then the result will come naturally. That's what Jerry is doing anyway and is quite serious about it.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Nick Morris on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:19 pm

Our minds are powerful motivators, but they are also powerful deterrents. I like your plan and think that you'll be able to break through that mental barrier. Good luck with your training!!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:37 pm

@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Pittsburgh is very hilly and those hills are in both the marathon and half, and you cross a number of bridges. Have you considered Cleveland or the Pig? I know the Cleveland course is almost as flat as anything in Chicago.

The course description on both the website and halfmarathons.net describe it as flat and fast, with only two minor climbs of approximatley 50 (i.e. less than half of heartbreak hill). But now you have me nervous. They haven't released the course map for 2012 yet, so I will have to hold off on registering.

I though Pig was quite hilly, no?

I'll look into Cleveland. I could always go back to Indy if I am not satisfied with these courses.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Dave-O on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:42 pm

@Diego wrote:

Now that you are billing more hours, I think it's soon time to have your lactate threshold checked. Elites run marathons just below that threshold(88-92% VO2max) and as a result, only have a 3-6 minute difference between marathon and half marathon(x2) times. Maybe talk with MVW. He recently had his tested.

I know that's the gold standard, but my best is half-marathon x 2 + 11 minutes. I won't say I'm a "bad" marathoner, but I truly think that the half will always be a better event for me. My highest scored PRs are my 10 mile and Half times. And I'm cool with that, which is part of the reason I am focusing on this distance. I love it and I'm good at it!

@pigoo wrote:
You're right Dave...our "buddy" (Coach McMillian) finish time calculator says "we" only need to run a 1:11:07 half-marathon to run a sub-2:30 marathon (2:29:59)...assuming the necessary marathon training of course! Wink

With a 1:09:59 half-marathon finish (which seems to be your current goal)...McMillians calculator indicates the potential for a 2:27:36!Smile I'm sure these figures are nothing new to you...I'm guessing you've "run the numbers" numerous times.Wink

Good luck with the training,Smile

- Nick

I wish McMillan's calculator was more kind to me. Cool

Even in the years when I was knocking off 10 minutes per year, my marathon time was always McMillan +2-3 minutes. I think I even joked in my race report from my 2:34 that it was a predictable result given my McMillan prediction was 2:31.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Chris M on Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:16 pm

[quote="Dave-O"]
@Diego wrote:

Now that you are billing more hours, I think it's soon time to have your lactate threshold checked. Elites run marathons just below that threshold(88-92% VO2max) and as a result, only have a 3-6 minute difference between marathon and half marathon(x2) times. Maybe talk with MVW. He recently had his tested.

I know that's the gold standard, but my best is half-marathon x 2 + 11 minutes. I won't say I'm a "bad" marathoner, but I truly think that the half will always be a better event for me. My highest scored PRs are my 10 mile and Half times. And I'm cool with that, which is part of the reason I am focusing on this distance. I love it and I'm good at it!

@pigoo wrote:
.

My bests at 13.1 and 26.2 are half marathon x 2 plus TWENTY MINUTES!! Wow, I think I am a "bad" marathoner! And the weird thing is that I've run far more marathons than halfs. Now looking at that I'm even more jealous that you are just doing the fun distance this Spring.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  John Kilpatrick on Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Is anyone ever "on" with McMillan's calculator? It seems like everyone is slower than predicted - I know that I am too. Is there such a person that is faster at marathons than at shorter races? If so, what is that all about? Chris - aren't your times related to cramping? Not really a cardio issue there. And, you most definitely are not a "bad" marathoner. I wonder what we would do if the McMillan calculator didn't even exist (or Garmins for that matter). I love looking at it too, but I can see it becoming a real bummer if you can't reach a predicted time. It is really useful to me for attempting to pace myself in a race though...

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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Chris M on Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:32 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Pittsburgh is very hilly and those hills are in both the marathon and half, and you cross a number of bridges. Have you considered Cleveland or the Pig? I know the Cleveland course is almost as flat as anything in Chicago.

The course description on both the website and halfmarathons.net describe it as flat and fast, with only two minor climbs of approximatley 50 (i.e. less than half of heartbreak hill). But now you have me nervous. They haven't released the course map for 2012 yet, so I will have to hold off on registering.

I though Pig was quite hilly, no?

I'll look into Cleveland. I could always go back to Indy if I am not satisfied with these courses.

I found two different daily mile logs from last year's Pittsburgh Half Marathon. Both are almost identical and they paint an elevation profile that looks pretty reasonable. I believe the big hills in Pittsburgh are in the 2nd half on the marathon course.





http://www.dailymile.com/routes/538086-running-route-in-pittsburgh-pa
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Schuey on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:39 am

First off Dave I like the new blog and the approach you are taking. Good way to build some confidence and good to focus on distances you feel you are good at and enjoy.

As always look forward to learning new things from you again in this blog.

@John Kilpatrick wrote:Is anyone ever "on" with McMillan's calculator? It seems like everyone is slower than predicted - I know that I am too. Is there such a person that is faster at marathons than at shorter races? If so, what is that all about? Chris - aren't your times related to cramping? Not really a cardio issue there. And, you most definitely are not a "bad" marathoner. I wonder what we would do if the McMillan calculator didn't even exist (or Garmins for that matter). I love looking at it too, but I can see it becoming a real bummer if you can't reach a predicted time. It is really useful to me for attempting to pace myself in a race though...

John to answer your question I'm one of the exceptions that runs faster marathon times vs the shorter distances. If my shorter races were my standard I would be lucky to be a 2:56 marathoner vs the 2:49 I have run.
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Jerry on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:05 am

@Schuey wrote:First off Dave I like the new blog and the approach you are taking. Good way to build some confidence and good to focus on distances you feel you are good at and enjoy.

As always look forward to learning new things from you again in this blog.

@John Kilpatrick wrote:Is anyone ever "on" with McMillan's calculator? It seems like everyone is slower than predicted - I know that I am too. Is there such a person that is faster at marathons than at shorter races? If so, what is that all about? Chris - aren't your times related to cramping? Not really a cardio issue there. And, you most definitely are not a "bad" marathoner. I wonder what we would do if the McMillan calculator didn't even exist (or Garmins for that matter). I love looking at it too, but I can see it becoming a real bummer if you can't reach a predicted time. It is really useful to me for attempting to pace myself in a race though...

John to answer your question I'm one of the exceptions that runs faster marathon times vs the shorter distances. If my shorter races were my standard I would be lucky to be a 2:56 marathoner vs the 2:49 I have run.

I am not sure if you really tapered and gave it all out in short distances though. lol!
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Re: Buck-O-Nine

Post  Mike MacLellan on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:31 pm

I'm a faster marathoner than short, too. My 10k time should be at least 6-10sec/mi faster than it is.
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