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Is Hal's forum gone?

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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Dave-O on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:04 pm

@Mr MattM wrote:I posted over there on the 'reexamining the forums' thread attempting to explain why so many left. I pointed out that it wasn't the technical issues with TPs. It was Hal's decisions and his dismissive reaction to the user's frustration. It became very apparent that, despite some of us having been regular contributors for many years, the 'V-Team' really didn't matter. That has proven true, as the 'V-Team' no longer exists.

After 15 minutes or so, I went back and deleted the post. It dawned on me that it really doesn't matter. Hal's gonna be Hal and sell his brand as long as he can. More power to him.

I would have been interested in reading your response. Any chance you saved it?
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Jerry on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:15 pm

So, are we moving to FB or Twitter? I don't have a Twitter account yet. Very Happy
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Diego on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:16 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Mr MattM wrote:I posted over there on the 'reexamining the forums' thread attempting to explain why so many left. I pointed out that it wasn't the technical issues with TPs. It was Hal's decisions and his dismissive reaction to the user's frustration. It became very apparent that, despite some of us having been regular contributors for many years, the 'V-Team' really didn't matter. That has proven true, as the 'V-Team' no longer exists.

After 15 minutes or so, I went back and deleted the post. It dawned on me that it really doesn't matter. Hal's gonna be Hal and sell his brand as long as he can. More power to him.

I would have been interested in reading your response. Any chance you saved it?

I would have like to have read it, too. Was the formation many years ago of Taper Madness related also to Hal's overbearing forum policing? Scuzi, the dangling modifier.

Having this forum in one form or another for 14 years or so is pretty good. Cool Runnings and many others bit the dust long ago.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Admin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:28 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Mr MattM wrote:I posted over there on the 'reexamining the forums' thread attempting to explain why so many left. I pointed out that it wasn't the technical issues with TPs. It was Hal's decisions and his dismissive reaction to the user's frustration. It became very apparent that, despite some of us having been regular contributors for many years, the 'V-Team' really didn't matter. That has proven true, as the 'V-Team' no longer exists.

After 15 minutes or so, I went back and deleted the post. It dawned on me that it really doesn't matter. Hal's gonna be Hal and sell his brand as long as he can. More power to him.

I would have been interested in reading your response. Any chance you saved it?

Sorry, I didn't... it was pretty much as I described. I pointed out that many felt that, despite years of continued support and participation, Hal really didn't care about us. I commented on the vibrant and dynamic past when threads would catch fire with a dozen or more people contributing in real-time... how Hal's name drew people into the site, but the community kept it alive... how even the tense topics/exchanges created passion and kept people invested/tied to the community... how it's now a very pale reflection of what it once was. Then, I pointed out that there's nothing special about a site with a few regular contributors who answer a few running questions now and then... it read well, but after a few minutes I realized that it was wasted energy.

I did read VWs blog and it looks like he's pretty ticked off. Once you 'pay your dues' on Hal's site and then realize that he really couldn't care less if you stay or go... it's pretty disenchanting.

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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:02 pm

@Diego wrote:
@Dave-O wrote:
@Mr MattM wrote:I posted over there on the 'reexamining the forums' thread attempting to explain why so many left. I pointed out that it wasn't the technical issues with TPs. It was Hal's decisions and his dismissive reaction to the user's frustration. It became very apparent that, despite some of us having been regular contributors for many years, the 'V-Team' really didn't matter. That has proven true, as the 'V-Team' no longer exists.

After 15 minutes or so, I went back and deleted the post. It dawned on me that it really doesn't matter. Hal's gonna be Hal and sell his brand as long as he can. More power to him.

I would have been interested in reading your response. Any chance you saved it?

I would have like to have read it, too. Was the formation many years ago of Taper Madness related also to Hal's overbearing forum policing? Scuzi, the dangling modifier.

Having this forum in one form or another for 14 years or so is pretty good. Cool Runnings and many others bit the dust long ago.

Yes, Taper Madness resulted from exactly that.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Kenny B. on Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:29 pm

When everything changes, change everything. I think that sums up my experience with Hals forum and why this one now exists. I am grateful for Hals forum and now I am grateful for this forum. I can't say I have been overly active as I used to be on this forum mainly because of time constraints.

That said, I know if I need support, motivations, or a good laugh I can find it here in an instance. That is priceless.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Ben Z on Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:40 pm

@Kenny B. wrote: I can't say I have been overly active as I used to be on this forum mainly because of time constraints.


Your post count would beg to differ... Wink
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Schuey on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:05 pm

Here's the deal I really thing Hal took for granted what he had. I understand what people are saying that he has a brand and he is selling and blah blah blah. Luck for him he has Facebook and tweeter to sell his product and I believe that is were he has turned his focus. Now the sad part is that forgot what help him brand his product for so many years and that was the forums.

I could be mean and say what I think of Hal as a business person but there is no need to go there, each there own on how they want to brand and sell their products.

Again as for the boards I really think he took it for granted that the boards would bounce back like they did the last time a lot of people left. He rolled the dice and well the mass crowds haven't been back. Why? Well again it goes back to be a business person and selling a product. For Hal he is stuck in a lost time and I truly don't think he really relates to today's runners. There are so many other coaches and books out there that have revolved with the times and well I'm afraid to say that Hal is being left in the dust. There will come a day when his name won't be enough to make him money with the younger and newer running crowd. Just my point of view on the subject again not trying to be harsh or mean to Hal just calling it how I see it.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Jim fredericks on Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:42 am

To say that the exodus of people in 2005 was due to "Hal's overbearing forum policy" is an oversimplification of what happened in my opinion and puts all the blame on Hal which I believe is unfair. As someone who had a ringside seat to the whole thing I can say that there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of that fiasco.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Admin on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:59 am

@Jim fredericks wrote:To say that the exodus of people in 2005 was due to "Hal's overbearing forum policy" is an oversimplification of what happened in my opinion and puts all the blame on Hal which I believe is unfair. As someone who had a ringside seat to the whole thing I can say that there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of that fiasco.

I blame Rufus.

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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:56 pm

@Mr MattM wrote:
@Jim fredericks wrote:To say that the exodus of people in 2005 was due to "Hal's overbearing forum policy" is an oversimplification of what happened in my opinion and puts all the blame on Hal which I believe is unfair. As someone who had a ringside seat to the whole thing I can say that there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of that fiasco.

I blame Rufus.

And Farnk.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  ssilvert on Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:31 am

@Jim fredericks wrote:To say that the exodus of people in 2005 was due to "Hal's overbearing forum policy" is an oversimplification of what happened in my opinion and puts all the blame on Hal which I believe is unfair. As someone who had a ringside seat to the whole thing I can say that there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of that fiasco.

I agree with Jim. Hal had every right to rid his forum of something he considered in very poor taste. The forum does bear his name after all. He may have been a bit too harsh toward those who didn't have a reasonable amount of time to "fix" their user accounts, but I don't blame him for taking action.

This time is quite different. From my perspective, I think the problem is mostly a usability issue. It's just too hard to get in there and post.

As for whether or not Hal cares about his regulars, I don't think that Hal has ever considered online relationships to be on the same level as traditional relationships. Whether or not the same love and devotion should be shown to virtual friends is a good topic for debate. There are good arguments on both sides.

All good things must come to an end. There were two great things about Hal's forum. One was the fun and lively V-Team. The other was Hal's expertise. I don't know of anyplace else on the web that you can go and get free advice on any question from a true running expert. Yes, it was all part of Hal's business model. But do you know of any other expert in any other field who makes a habit of giving away expertise to all comers for free? It's rare indeed.

Stan

(Incidentally, as an open source software developer I answer forum questions and give away expertise for free. But I didn't think you would be interested in the topic of open source software, which has a similar business model to Hal's.)
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  John Kilpatrick on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:48 am

I don't have anything negative to say as I wasn't really around back then. I'm grateful for Hal's forum - gave me an opportunity to meet most of the people here and for that I thank him. Can't throw any stones that direction - I hope all good things really don't need to end and we can stick together while staying welcoming to people like myself - wish Hal the best, I would love to meet him, have a lot of respect for him, and really appreciate the efforts of Matt/Dave/etc. for getting us going here. Thanks guys!

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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Michael Mitchell on Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

I joined back in 2006. It was really hopping back then. Now, I cannot even login. LOL I wish Hal nothing but the best and I admire him for his accomplishments in track and field, marathoning and as an author.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Jerry on Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:18 pm

@ssilvert wrote:

All good things must come to an end.




天下没有不散的筵席。Very Happy
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Chris M on Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:16 pm

@Jerry wrote:
@ssilvert wrote:

All good things must come to an end.




天下没有不散的筵席。Very Happy

Indeed, there is no never ending feast, Jerry.

A couple of things I miss from the old place are:

1. The Friday Threads - any chance John P could be talked back into maintaining a list of who posts those next? I thought those were a nice way to learn more about each other even when they expanded beyond pure running topics

2. The more basic questions that would lead to interesting discussions. Over there, you would often see someone (I remember myself doing this one) asking something like "what's the best way to hold your arms/hands as you run?" or "any thoughts on how I should approach this half marathon coming up?". We get some of that here and it seems to have picked up a bit lately but I wish there was more of it because threads like that get interesting responses and thoughtful comments from runners with a lot of experience and I like reading those.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Bob on Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:08 pm

@Jim fredericks wrote:To say that the exodus of people in 2005 was due to "Hal's overbearing forum policy" is an oversimplification of what happened in my opinion and puts all the blame on Hal which I believe is unfair. As someone who had a ringside seat to the whole thing I can say that there was plenty of blame to go around on both sides of that fiasco.

Interesting comment, Jim, and I'd be interested to hear more of what you mean by this.

From my point of view, the V-Teamers that were around back then became more than just virtual friends. The group had become a crowd that got together often, traveled together, had weddings, babies, etc...and Hal's site had become a place for everyone to keep in touch, similar to what the last couple of years had been. The group, for lack of better words, had taken over the site. I wouldn't say in a bad way, but Hal may have felt he had become secondary to the site. The group was great with answering everyone's questions, and in fact, probably had a handful of responses of help before Hal had a chance to pipe in.

The photo incident was the last straw. Was it all that bad? I don't think so, but it wasn't my site. I don't blame Hal for anything he felt he needed to do, though banning someone from his site (or as liked to say, "from the internet") was somewhat hilarious and silly. I agree with those who say that the love we had for Hal wasn't felt in return, and I think many felt used.

Things have changed on the internet. Most people don't need to go to a forum to keep in touch while they are supposed to be working. Most are using Facebook and Twitter to do that now, so I'm not sure that Hal's site was going to lose visitors anyway.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Jim fredericks on Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:31 pm

I think you are kind of proving my point Bob. There was blame to go around on both sides. I agree that the photo incident was not that bad and Hal over-reacted to it. But the push back against Hal was also over the top. Both sides had the opportunity to be the adult in the room and let it go, and both sides chose not to do so. It is also worth mentioning the vast majority of people who were a part of the V-boards at that time were not a part of the group of people that you mention and some of us felt that the group had almost "taken over" the boards to the exclusion of the rest of us whether they meant to do that or even realized it. It is true, the internet has changed. Back in the days when we were on the old "Do-It Sports" boards there was no such thing as Facebook or Twitter and if there had been it is likely that things would have been very different.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  JohnP on Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:49 pm

@Bob wrote:
The photo incident was the last straw.

OK, for those not in the know, what happened?
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Bob on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:05 pm

@Jim fredericks wrote: It is also worth mentioning the vast majority of people who were a part of the V-boards at that time were not a part of the group of people that you mention and some of us felt that the group had almost "taken over" the boards to the exclusion of the rest of us whether they meant to do that or even realized it.



I agree with just about everything you said, Jim, except this part. I guess we can "argue" who is or isn't part of the group. I can say that for a couple years, there were well over 60-70 "V-Teamers" that showed up at DWD alone. And then there were many more who couldn't make it that met up at other races.

I don't think there is any way that everyone can ever feel included. I personally can say that I felt like an outsider the last few years on Hal's boards. That could be for many reasons, but I knew that was just the way it was. Maybe I didn't go out of my way to meet up with different groups at races, maybe it was I felt some people were just different than I. I don't think this is something that can be controlled, but just the way things work out.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  JohnP on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:07 pm

@Chris M wrote:
A couple of things I miss from the old place are:

1. The Friday Threads - any chance John P could be talked back into maintaining a list of who posts those next? I thought those were a nice way to learn more about each other even when they expanded beyond pure running topics


Chris, I really liked those Friday threads too. The main problem those last 2-3 months over at Hal's site were that people weren't signing up any more or they would forget they signed up and even with reminders, we had too many weeks where we didn't have one. Maybe we should try to put some out there in the upcoming weeks in an ad hoc fashion and see if the idea keeps on.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Bob on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:19 pm

@JohnP wrote:
@Bob wrote:
The photo incident was the last straw.

OK, for those not in the know, what happened?



It was Frank's fault. Though, if you saw the pic, it really wasn't all that bad. He was applying Body Glide to his nether regions.

I know someone has the pic somewhere. If Frankie checks in, he'll post it.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Jim fredericks on Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:34 pm

@Bob wrote:
@Jim fredericks wrote: It is also worth mentioning the vast majority of people who were a part of the V-boards at that time were not a part of the group of people that you mention and some of us felt that the group had almost "taken over" the boards to the exclusion of the rest of us whether they meant to do that or even realized it.



I agree with just about everything you said, Jim, except this part. I guess we can "argue" who is or isn't part of the group. I can say that for a couple years, there were well over 60-70 "V-Teamers" that showed up at DWD alone. And then there were many more who couldn't make it that met up at other races.

I don't think there is any way that everyone can ever feel included. I personally can say that I felt like an outsider the last few years on Hal's boards. That could be for many reasons, but I knew that was just the way it was. Maybe I didn't go out of my way to meet up with different groups at races, maybe it was I felt some people were just different than I. I don't think this is something that can be controlled, but just the way things work out.



Bob I can honestly say that the few times that I met up with people from the V-Team at races in those days they were to a person always welcoming and friendly. I have no intention of suggesting otherwise. I believe that it was the intention of Hal and Training Peaks to reach the widest possible audience with a running oriented website and things were getting out of hand. The overwhelming majority of people who came to the site did so for matters related to running and not the other stuff that was going on at times and eventually became unreasonable. At any rate, it is not something from the past that I would choose to dwell on. Whats done is done.

My memory of the "photo incident" is a little hazy but if it serves I believe that although the picture in question was a picture of Frank, he was not the one who posted it and got Hal rankled.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  Mike MacLellan on Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:23 pm

I agree with Chris about the Friday threads. I miss those. I would be willing to keep the list if the position opens up.
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Re: Is Hal's forum gone?

Post  mountandog on Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:26 pm

@Mike MacLellan wrote:I agree with Chris about the Friday threads. I miss those. I would be willing to keep the list if the position opens up.

I'll sign up too!

I actually wish I have met more of you in person.

ill have to go read MV blog, I liked him the one time I met him. Wondered why he never migrated over here but figured that was a personal loyalty issue and none of my business.
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