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An Oldie but Goodie - 5 Key Marathon Workouts

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Post  Ben Z Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:20 am

I still love trying to do these workouts. Came pretty close to completing the 10k tempo tonight. First time I ever got so close to hitting the desired pace. Enjoy.

Here are five key marathon workouts and why they are effective and should be a staple in your marathon program.


1) 24 mile long run at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace). This workout has many benefits essential to successful marathon running. It aids mental concentration, adaptation of the muscular structure to competing for multiple hours, it makes the body more efficient at using energy sources such as glycogen and fat (especially in using fat as a fuel source) and boosts the bodies storage capacity for glycogen. To enhance this fuel burning efficiency it is recommened you only take water and electrolyte tablets during this workout.

2) 20 miles run with the first 10 miles at an easy pace (80-85% of marathon pace) and the last 10 miles run at marathon race pace. This run does many of the same things as listed in #1 above but it also teaches your body to run at marathon pace when you are tired. This workout is a staple in many marathoners programs including Ryan Hall's.

3) 10 mile Tempo run at 100 to 102% of marathon race pace. It is recommened this workout be done on the road on a course similar in geography to the course you will be racing on. This workout is often used mid-week to acclimate the body to running at marathon race pace and boost aerobic stamina (endurance). Inimate familiarity with desired marathon pace is crucial in successfully racing a marathon, especially in the critical early stages when you are feeling fresh and its easy to get started at too fast a pace.

4) 10k Tempo run @ 105-106% of marathon pace. It is recommened the workout be done on a track or on a flat surface where the pace can be closely monitored. This workout is a favorite of Renato Canova for building aerobic power/capacity in his marathoners. Many runners substitute a sub-maximum effort 10k road race for this workout. This workout pushes outward the anaerobic threshold and enhances the aerobic efficiency and characteristics of muscles fibers in the muscular system. In addition prolonged efforts at faster than marathon pace have the additional mental benefit of making marathon pace seem easier in comparison.

5) 6 x 1 mile @ 110% of marathon pace with 400 jog recovery. It is recommeneded that this workout be done on a track or flat road course. This workout is a classic speed workout for marathon runners. This workout improves the bodies efficiency (aerobic capcity) as well as it ability to process and get rid of lactate. This increased efficiecny enhances the bodies ability to handle, remain relaxed at, and run efficiently at the slightly slower pace of marathon race pace. Studies have found little benefit to running at more than 10% faster than goal race pace, so if able additional reps or a shorter recovery should be used rather than increasing the pace of this workout.


Example in calculating paces.

If marathon race pace (MPR) for you is 6:00 per mile (360 seconds) then:

80% of MRP is 360/.80 = 7:30 (450 seconds)
105% of MRP is 360/1.05 = 5:43 (343 seconds)
110% of MRP is 360/1.10 = 5:27 (327 seconds)

Good luck and see you on the roads.

MPR

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2487659
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Post  Alex Kubacki Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:42 am

Is there a timing as to when in the cycle these should be done? Are these done multiple times or just one each as a test?
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Post  Dave-O Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:16 am

Alex Kubacki wrote:Is there a timing as to when in the cycle these should be done? Are these done multiple times or just one each as a test?

It's tough to balance them, and there's no exact guideline as to when to do them. I use all these workouts in my training, so a few thoughts:

1. I suggest this twice in training, though anywhere in the 22-24 mile range is good enough in my opinion. This is essentially what many refer to as the "time on your feet" run. The goal is to be out there as long as your goal marathon. if I had to pin down dates, I would do them 10 weeks and 6 weeks out. Inside of 6 weeks (5 maybe) I prefer to cap the long run at 20.

2. This workout is a beast, one that takes 2 easy days prior to get ready and 2-3 easy days after to recover. I recommend doing it just once, about 4 weeks out from your goal race. In my opinion, this is every bit as hard as using a half-marathon as a tune-up race. Be sure to fuel properly. However, you can modify this workout a few times in training to get a similar benefit, such as 16 or 14 with last 8 or 7 at goal pace.

3. My jury is still out on this one. I did it almost weekly last cycle to focus on specific fitness -and I'm not sure it paid off. I don't think it provides enough of a true LT benefit. That being said, if you can knock out 10 at goal pace a few times as a mid-week workout, you're in great position.

4. This is just your classic tempo run. It doesn't have to be 6 miles, as I prescribe to the belief that 20-40 minutes at this pace is ideal to improve your lactic threshold. Hitting 110% of goal pace is aggressive, so as Ben said, its something to work towards. As for frequency, I'm with Pfitz that tempos should be part of every week when marathon training.

5. I use this workout in the last 6-8 weeks as part of race sharpening. I typically do it twice during that time frame. I also like traditional Yasso 800's, though, for turnover and true V02Max. So perhaps over a 4 week period you could alternate 800's and these mile repeats. Note that the pace suggested below is a little slower than a true interval workout. Staying within your LT Pace is key to being able to do 5 or 6 (or Cool.
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Post  Admin Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:18 am

1) One of my 'preparedness tests' is to run 22 miles in the goal time for my marathon during a peak mileage week (90+ miles). If I nail it with juice at the end, I feel good about my goal. I'll only do this once, usually a couple of weeks before the race. I'm not a fan of 24 mile training runs. Ever. I typically only do a run over 16 miles every 3rd week or so (but on a base of 80+ mpw)

2) I don't do this. I'll do long runs as fast as GMP + 20, but I tend to reserve MP for race day.

3) Not in my plans. The only 100+% of GMP in my training would be in intervals of 2 miles or less, and even then I run them very sparingly.

4) Not me, unless I sign up for a race.

5) These can be fun, though I'd change them up... 6x1, 3x2, etc...

The fast stuff in training always seems to wear me down more than build me up. Instead of bursts of high intensity followed by recovery (supercompensation), I've had some success with a gradual, sustained low-level fatigue over many weeks. At some point I'm sure I'll need to train faster to see improvement, but I don't know that I'm there yet.

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Post  Ben Z Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:51 am

From the poster in this thread:

As for the training cycle. I recommend using these workouts in the 8-10 weeks before the taper, once desired mileage level has been achieved.

No more than 2 per week at 80-1120 miles per week and no more than once every 4-7 days at below 80 miles per week.

As for the mileage question. I think a minimum of 70 per week would be necessary to handle these type of workouts regularly, with something in the 80-120 range being closer to ideal. Below 70 miles per week you will need to shorten these somewhat (losing some effictiveness)
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Post  Ben Z Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:56 am

Mr MattM wrote:1)

The fast stuff in training always seems to wear me down more than build me up. Instead of bursts of high intensity followed by recovery (supercompensation), I've had some success with a gradual, sustained low-level fatigue over many weeks. At some point I'm sure I'll need to train faster to see improvement, but I don't know that I'm there yet.

This is a key point that I feel many people don't understand. It's why high mileage pays off and why it's critical to taper properly before a race. Using this approach you will always kind of feel like crap and rarely perform in fast / aggressive workouts. But if you stick with it and taper you will likely reap the fruits of your labor on raceday.
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Post  Admin Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:29 pm

Ben Z wrote:...It's why high mileage pays off and why it's critical to taper properly before a race. Using this approach you will always kind of feel like crap and rarely perform in fast / aggressive workouts. But if you stick with it and taper you will likely reap the fruits of your labor on raceday.

Interestingly, the week before my PR in Chicago '10 I ran 98 miles on all single runs. Not a traditional taper. However, the week of the race I limited myself to 5 miles easy per day, took Friday off (for travel), and ran 5 miles easy on Saturday morning. It was the best race of my life... and I'm ready to do it again!

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Post  Mike MacLellan Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:32 pm

1. I do what Matt does; 22mi in the goal time. I think it's something like 30min-to-5mi @ MP+20%, middle @ MP+15%, last 30min-to-5mi @ MP+10%. I forget if it's the 30min or 5mi that makes the math work out, but it should be 22mi in your goal time. That's usually 5 weeks out.

2. I do this one 4 weeks out, but I do a solid hour-to-90min GA run the day before. Usually it's a 10-20.

3. I do this one as my mid-week sorta long between the two aforementioned runs, but I break it to 2x 5mi @ MP w/ 1mi easy between.

4. I do something closer to what Dave suggested; actually, it's a Hal-style tempo, starting with 1/week about 6-7 weeks out. Building from 20-40min.

5. I don't. Very Happy
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Post  kath Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:28 pm

I am confused by either the wording or the math used here. If I were talking about running slower than MP, I would normally say that I'm running over pace or more than pace or pace plus something, but here it's expressed as less than pace. To get 80% of something, you multiply it by .8, not divide it by .8. Dividing by .8 is like multiplying by 10/8, which is 125%. In the example given, 7:30 min/mi is 125% of 6:00 min/mi (.25 * 360 = 90, 360 + 90 = 450, 450 sec/mi = 7:30 min/mi). Similarly, 5:42 is 95% of 6:00, and 5:27 is 91%.

I'm only peaking at 50 miles per week and shooting for a sub 3:55 marathon, so maybe these workouts aren't appropriate for me... but for me, dividing my MP by .80 comes out to about 2 min/mi slower, which is so slow it would be hard to maintain. MP plus 15-20% would feel plenty easy. For the 6:00 min/mi example, this would be 6:54 - 7:12. Is that what the OP means by 80-85%?

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Post  Admin Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:57 pm

In my sub3 goal example, I ran 22 miles in 2:59 and change during a peak week. That is about 8:10/mi pace, or 78 secs/mi slower than GMP (6:52). Since we're dealing with a max of 100% = 6:52 (412 secs), you can take 1 minus the number of secs slower than MP divided by MP in secs:

1 - (78/412) = 81% of GMP

I wouldn't want to extend that out to 24 miles, though, because that would keep me out past my goal of 3 hrs.

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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:32 am

Kath - I only run 50-60 mpw as peak mileage, and the one thing that I might say regarding the "Time on your feet" long run is that those of us in this lower mileage category will benefit from using the 3 hrs as a goal rather than Matt's 22 miles. At 3 hrs, we have had enough time on our feet, and in most cases this will be 20+ miles (might be 20.1, but still 20). I race a marathon in the 3:40-3:45 range, and this generally equates to a 9 min pace which is about 40-50 sec slower than GMP. I find that I really have to slow myself down to run this pace, and if I finish the 3 hrs feeling strong or with a "faster" last 2 miles, I know I'm ready.
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Post  kath Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:59 pm

Mr MattM wrote:In my sub3 goal example, I ran 22 miles in 2:59 and change during a peak week. That is about 8:10/mi pace, or 78 secs/mi slower than GMP (6:52). Since we're dealing with a max of 100% = 6:52 (412 secs), you can take 1 minus the number of secs slower than MP divided by MP in secs:

1 - (78/412) = 81% of GMP

I wouldn't want to extend that out to 24 miles, though, because that would keep me out past my goal of 3 hrs.

Going by the example in the original post, it says for you 81% would be 412/.81 = about 8:34. Your calculation makes more sense, though I prefer to express it as 1 + (78/412) or 119%.

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Kath - I only run 50-60 mpw as peak
mileage, and the one thing that I might say regarding the "Time on your
feet" long run is that those of us in this lower mileage category will
benefit from using the 3 hrs as a goal rather than Matt's 22 miles. At 3
hrs, we have had enough time on our feet, and in most cases this will
be 20+ miles (might be 20.1, but still 20). I race a marathon in the
3:40-3:45 range, and this generally equates to a 9 min pace which is
about 40-50 sec slower than GMP. I find that I really have to slow
myself down to run this pace, and if I finish the 3 hrs feeling strong
or with a "faster" last 2 miles, I know I'm ready.

Michele, thanks for the encouraging advice. Last weekend I did a 20-miler, with an elapsed time of 3:30 (including pee and water breaks). I consciously kept it slow because my hamstring has been a bit sore lately. The week before I did a 30K race in 2:46, a little slower than MP, and felt very strong at the end. This week is a stepback week then after that I have 3 more long runs to do (plus 2 stepback weeks and 2 taper weeks). I will probably do one long run as a "fast finish" and another as a "time on feet" then decide what makes sense for the last one.

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Post  Admin Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:11 pm

kath wrote:

Going by the example in the original post, it says for you 81% would be 412/.81 = about 8:34. Your calculation makes more sense, though I prefer to express it as 1 + (78/412) or 119%.


FWIW, when you see reference to relative paces as a percent in the running community at large, greater than 100% is faster than MP (e.g., 102% of MP is 2% faster than MP). It's not a matter of personal preference, it's a standard used by coaches in setting training pace ranges.

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Post  kath Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Mr MattM wrote:

FWIW, when you see reference to relative paces as a percent in the running community at large, greater than 100% is faster than MP (e.g., 102% of MP is 2% faster than MP). It's not a matter of personal preference, it's a standard used by coaches in setting training pace ranges.

Thanks, I didn't know that, but it does seem counter-intuitive to me. Kind of like when one talks about "raising" or "lowering" a qualifying standard, which one is decreasing the number to make it harder to qualify?

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Post  Jerry Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:50 pm

Mr MattM wrote:1)

The fast stuff in training always seems to wear me down more than build me up. Instead of bursts of high intensity followed by recovery (supercompensation), I've had some success with a gradual, sustained low-level fatigue over many weeks. At some point I'm sure I'll need to train faster to see improvement, but I don't know that I'm there yet.


The last statement is interesting, cause Jerry feels the same for himself, except Jerry doesn't like/want to do doubles in order to increase mileage beyond 80mpw. So Jerry stays around 70mpw and ups the intensity.

Then of cause Jerry needs to up the mileage from 40 to 70 first. Very Happy
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Post  Admin Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:02 pm

Jerry wrote:
Mr MattM wrote:1)

The fast stuff in training always seems to wear me down more than build me up. Instead of bursts of high intensity followed by recovery (supercompensation), I've had some success with a gradual, sustained low-level fatigue over many weeks. At some point I'm sure I'll need to train faster to see improvement, but I don't know that I'm there yet.


The last statement is interesting, cause Jerry feels the same for himself, except Jerry doesn't like/want to do doubles in order to increase mileage beyond 80mpw. So Jerry stays around 70mpw and ups the intensity.

Then of cause Jerry needs to up the mileage from 40 to 70 first. Very Happy

Matt really enjoys doubles and does them for fun! Matt will run at lunch during the week, then go run again at night before bed. Matt can easily log 80mpw+ doing this and it prepares Matt for the marathon. Now, Matt understands that Jerry is barely a runner these days so Matt will cut Jerry some slack. Matt wonders if perhaps Jerry should switch to another sport, like table tennis... or watching NASCAR?

Matt likes Jerry and hopes Jerry finds his running MOJO soon.

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Post  Mike MacLellan Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:05 pm

Mike prefers optional doubles. That is all.
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Post  Jerry Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:34 pm

Mr MattM wrote:
Jerry wrote:
Mr MattM wrote:1)

The fast stuff in training always seems to wear me down more than build me up. Instead of bursts of high intensity followed by recovery (supercompensation), I've had some success with a gradual, sustained low-level fatigue over many weeks. At some point I'm sure I'll need to train faster to see improvement, but I don't know that I'm there yet.


The last statement is interesting, cause Jerry feels the same for himself, except Jerry doesn't like/want to do doubles in order to increase mileage beyond 80mpw. So Jerry stays around 70mpw and ups the intensity.

Then of cause Jerry needs to up the mileage from 40 to 70 first. Very Happy

Matt really enjoys doubles and does them for fun! Matt will run at lunch during the week, then go run again at night before bed. Matt can easily log 80mpw+ doing this and it prepares Matt for the marathon. Now, Matt understands that Jerry is barely a runner these days so Matt will cut Jerry some slack. Matt wonders if perhaps Jerry should switch to another sport, like table tennis... or watching NASCAR?

Matt likes Jerry and hopes Jerry finds his running MOJO soon.

Lunch time workout?

Jerry misses his days in the mega American socialism company ......
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