365Runners
Welcome to 365Runners! We are here because we all share a running addiction. Whether training for a first marathon, a new PR, a new race distance, or anything else... welcome!

To stop the banner ads, please register and login. Otherwise, please enjoy browsing as a guest.

Training Program Suggestions

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 11:52 am

I have been using Pfitzingers program with some tweaks for the past few years with good results but when I start training for Philly this year I am considering changing it up and using something new to spark some new enthusiasm and hopefully faster times!

Any suggestions to some template programs you like? I looked into McMillians suggestions and maybe I can design my own based on his concepts. Hudson is another one I have looked into in the past as well.
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu May 03, 2012 12:21 pm

What are your strengths? Limiters? Do you respond to more miles or more speed? Which breaks you down faster? Do you require a day off every week?
avatar
Mike MacLellan
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 3091
Points : 7373
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 30
Location : Arlington, VA

View user profile http://www.facebook.com/mike.a.maclellan

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu May 03, 2012 12:22 pm

Ever thought about using a McMillan designed program i.e. getting him to talk with you and specifically design it. Might help with the mental aspect too.
avatar
Michele "1L" Keane
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4742
Points : 11075
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 55
Location : Cleveland (Bay Village), OH/Atlanta, GA

View user profile http://1lranthere.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 12:27 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:What are your strengths? Limiters? Do you respond to more miles or more speed? Which breaks you down faster? Do you require a day off every week?

I am in the process of answering that myself.

My best races seem to be HM and 10miles but also 5k. I suffer in 5 mile races and have yet to prove myself in marathon where I should be at 3:15 and PR is 3:23 but if all goes well I can see Buffalo 3:17 or 3:18.

I don't require a day off every week but certainly every 10-14 days for sure.

I think the the long run breaks me down more than anything but it also one of the runs I enjoy most and respond pretty well to it when doing it.

Not sure my strengths and limiters to be honest.
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 12:28 pm

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Ever thought about using a McMillan designed program i.e. getting him to talk with you and specifically design it. Might help with the mental aspect too.

Mich - I just printed out his six step training system to read up more about it. I may consider a custom tailored program from him directly or seeing about designing one from scratch myself based on his system.
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu May 03, 2012 12:36 pm

Based on my understanding of McMillan's 6-Step (which I'm going to use to tailor my next plan, actually), it seems like a combination of endurance/stamina is limiting you. Is your non-equivalent PR due to bleeding time? Or just never being able to train for that pace? How often do you incorporate steady-state (McMillan's definition) runs and/or fast-finishes (around HMP)?
avatar
Mike MacLellan
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 3091
Points : 7373
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 30
Location : Arlington, VA

View user profile http://www.facebook.com/mike.a.maclellan

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 12:44 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:Based on my understanding of McMillan's 6-Step (which I'm going to use to tailor my next plan, actually), it seems like a combination of endurance/stamina is limiting you. Is your non-equivalent PR due to bleeding time? Or just never being able to train for that pace? How often do you incorporate steady-state (McMillan's definition) runs and/or fast-finishes (around HMP)?

Bleeding Time! I train successfully at MP and hit all my training runs pretty consistently with no issues in HR etc.

Steady-State by McMillians I never do that pace. But I do GA runs and MP runs and fast finish. Along with track work out and tempo runs. But this is more of Phitzinger program not McMillian.
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Dave-O on Thu May 03, 2012 12:52 pm

Kenny B. wrote: Hudson is another one I have looked into in the past as well.

I've done both, and Hudson is a lot different from Pfitz. While Pfitz is focused on a rigid "hard-easy" approach, Hudson contains a lot more moderate efforts. The workouts are not as hard, but there aren't as many pure recovery days either.

I respond better to Pfitz's approach, but Hudson provides a solid program. It really depends on what you're looking for on a weekly basis.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4427
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 35
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu May 03, 2012 12:55 pm

My ddx (caveat emptor; entirely based on a "functional knowledge" of endurance physiology) is that you're lacking staying power. If it were me personally, I'd counter it with a combination of the following:

1. More progressive runs. Even your easy daily runs can have 2 miles moderate/hard at the end to simulate running at pace on tired legs. And it won't tear you up for the next day.
2. Faster fast finishes. If it's your long run anyway, the next day will be recovery. So crank up the final 5mi/25% of the run. First to GA, then MP, then HMP, then 10k, if you can. I usually incorporate these at the end of a cutback week.
3. Back-to-back GA and LSD runs. Like Hal's 10/20. But every weekend. So start with something like 8/13 on week 1 and build to 10/22. The first day is GA/MP.
4. Proper fueling. This could be a glycogen depletion issue. Teach your body to utilize fat early in your training (sloooooooow long runs) and figure out how many calories you need/can take in while running at MP.
5. Mind tricks. Read Schuey's... Boston? Chicago? One of those... race report. The one where he hit everything perfectly. Not to be a fan boy, but I read it three or four times during my taper, along with an article that a female pro had written about battling "the beast." Then I had a 40 minute conversation with my beast during that lonely, desperate final 10k.

Again, this is just what works for me. My body holds up to tempo runs in the 10k-HMP range. It does not like speedwork and breaks down faster with it. I also recover enough from long runs within a day or two to resume "regular" training.
avatar
Mike MacLellan
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 3091
Points : 7373
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 30
Location : Arlington, VA

View user profile http://www.facebook.com/mike.a.maclellan

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  mul21 on Thu May 03, 2012 12:56 pm

Honestly Kenny, I think something that would benefit you greatly would be doing more long tempo runs throughout your program. I think that's the biggest thing, besides increased miles, that got my PR where it is. You're already running as many or more miles than I did last spring, so I think focusing on really stretching out that lactate threshold ability is probably the key. Lots of 10-12 mile runs with 6-8 miles at tempoish pace. Start out a little on the slow end of tempo and work down just a little faster than what you normally might go on a tempo run in the last mile or two.
avatar
mul21
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1481
Points : 4572
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 41
Location : St. Louis

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Dave-O on Thu May 03, 2012 1:01 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:My ddx (caveat emptor; entirely based on a "functional knowledge" of endurance physiology) is that you're lacking staying power. If it were me personally, I'd counter it with a combination of the following:

1. More progressive runs. Even your easy daily runs can have 2 miles moderate/hard at the end to simulate running at pace on tired legs. And it won't tear you up for the next day.
2. Faster fast finishes. If it's your long run anyway, the next day will be recovery. So crank up the final 5mi/25% of the run. First to GA, then MP, then HMP, then 10k, if you can. I usually incorporate these at the end of a cutback week.
3. Back-to-back GA and LSD runs. Like Hal's 10/20. But every weekend. So start with something like 8/13 on week 1 and build to 10/22. The first day is GA/MP.
4. Proper fueling. This could be a glycogen depletion issue. Teach your body to utilize fat early in your training (sloooooooow long runs) and figure out how many calories you need/can take in while running at MP.
5. Mind tricks. Read Schuey's... Boston? Chicago? One of those... race report. The one where he hit everything perfectly. Not to be a fan boy, but I read it three or four times during my taper, along with an article that a female pro had written about battling "the beast." Then I had a 40 minute conversation with my beast during that lonely, desperate final 10k.

Again, this is just what works for me. My body holds up to tempo runs in the 10k-HMP range. It does not like speedwork and breaks down faster with it. I also recover enough from long runs within a day or two to resume "regular" training.

Hudson would address #'s 1 and 2, and #3 to some extent.

And it would be easy to incorporate Jim's suggestion of longer tempos to Hudson's structure.
avatar
Dave-O
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 1736
Points : 4427
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 35
Location : Chicago

View user profile http://www.fleetfeetchicago.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Jerry on Thu May 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Kenny,

Didn't you run 70mpw and still couldn't BQ? Give up, man. lol!

Kidding aside, I don't seem to remember you ever trained for short distance. Why don't you switch gear for some high intensity, low mileage training, then go back to marathon again? Maybe some soccer?

That's how Jerry does it.

If that still doesn't work, give up, man!
avatar
Jerry
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2708
Points : 1004157
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Where I'm Loved

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 1:17 pm

mul21 wrote:Honestly Kenny, I think something that would benefit you greatly would be doing more long tempo runs throughout your program. I think that's the biggest thing, besides increased miles, that got my PR where it is. You're already running as many or more miles than I did last spring, so I think focusing on really stretching out that lactate threshold ability is probably the key. Lots of 10-12 mile runs with 6-8 miles at tempoish pace. Start out a little on the slow end of tempo and work down just a little faster than what you normally might go on a tempo run in the last mile or two.

Jerry wrote:Kenny,

Jim - I am thinking about that as well. I think McMillian Suggest more Tempo from 6-8 I tend to be from 4-7 and not many.
Didn't you run 70mpw and still couldn't BQ? Give up, man. lol!

Kidding aside, I don't seem to remember you ever trained for short distance. Why don't you switch gear for some high intensity, low mileage training, then go back to marathon again? Maybe some soccer?

That's how Jerry does it.

If that still doesn't work, give up, man!

jerry giving up is an option but I rather call it "setting it aside as it no longer serves my purpose". lol
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Kenny B. on Thu May 03, 2012 1:18 pm

Dave-O wrote:
Kenny B. wrote: Hudson is another one I have looked into in the past as well.

I've done both, and Hudson is a lot different from Pfitz. While Pfitz is focused on a rigid "hard-easy" approach, Hudson contains a lot more moderate efforts. The workouts are not as hard, but there aren't as many pure recovery days either.

I respond better to Pfitz's approach, but Hudson provides a solid program. It really depends on what you're looking for on a weekly basis.

I think I respond well to the recovery days so I have to be careful so I give my body the rest it needs. I found hudson to be a bit overwhelming in some areas!
avatar
Kenny B.
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 2036
Points : 4750
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 45
Location : Jersey Shore!

View user profile http://www.365Competitors.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Ben Z on Thu May 03, 2012 8:15 pm

Mike MacLellan wrote:My ddx (caveat emptor; entirely based on a "functional knowledge" of endurance physiology) is that you're lacking staying power.

We're getting a little personal here...aren't we??
avatar
Ben Z
Regular
Regular

Posts : 698
Points : 3363
Join date : 2011-06-15
Location : Bay Area

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Training Program Suggestions

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum