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Running Chicago, for me

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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Nick Morris on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:31 pm

@JohnP wrote:Thanks Kenny and Jim. It's good to know you do harder workouts back to back successfully. These back-to-back will be the pyramid (today) and then some short LT intervals tomorrow. Then Saturday will be easier, with the long run on Sunday. Also Kenny, my BQ is helped by getting older, don't forget. I think you've made more improvements in actual time than me.

I also noticed in looking at the chart that moving time is consistently 3-5 seconds less than the mile split. I guess that is from crossing roads and having to slow a bit for that regularly.

Anyway, Jim, the pyramid is a ladder. THe plan called for 1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1 intervals at 5K-10K pace with equivalent recovery (34 total minutes). This went pretty well this morning and I tried to do a little faster on the paces than the plan shows.

Warm-up (run to track): 3.55 miles, 8:46 pace
Cool-down (run home): 3.50 miles, 8:58 pace
Intervals and recovery: 4.33 miles

Total - 11.38 miles - this chart is for the intervals:

SplitTimeDistanceAvg PaceAvg HR
10:01:020.176:05124
20:00:580.109:35141
30:02:010.306:45145
40:01:590.229:14138
50:03:000.437:01146
60:02:590.329:24136
70:02:000.306:46146
80:01:590.229:13140
90:01:000.156:31143
100:00:590.109:48146
110:02:000.296:49149
120:02:000.219:40142
130:03:000.436:59149
140:03:000.329:19141
150:02:010.306:45151
160:01:580.229:00146
170:01:070.166:48148
180:00:570.0910:12147
Summary0:34:054.337:52143

Hey John...Looks like you are putting in some good training runs. The pyramid intervals looks like a great workout (you don't mind if I steal it for future training Very Happy ) Keep up the good work!!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Kenny B. on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:46 pm

I don't get the distance part of the intervals. What distance or does it vary like fartlek?
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:06 pm

@Kenny B. wrote:I don't get the distance part of the intervals. What distance or does it vary like fartlek?

It's like a fartlek except the intervals are by time, not distance. So I ran a minute fast (roughly 6:30 pace), then a minute slow. Then two minutes fast (roughly 6:45 pace) then two minutes slow. Then three minutes fast (roughly 7:00 pace) then three minutes slow. THe instructions said to vary between 5K-10K pace so that's why the pace changes. SO this just repeated like a pyramid for 34 total minutes. It looks like the fast runs accounted for about 2.5 miles and the recovery was about 1.8 miles (of the total 34 minutes).
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:20 pm

Nice work, John.

Hope your daughter likes New Bedford.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Seth Harrison on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:19 am

John, I love the trajectory of your marathon PR's. Judging by your chart at the start of your blog, your days of PR's are still ahead of you, and you're training is spot on. Chicago followed by Boston makes for an exciting year. I'm sorry I won't be seeing you next year in Boston, but hopefully in 2013!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Randy E on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:37 am

Hi John,
I just wanted to wish you the best with your training this summer and also as you eventually start your preparation for Boston.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Schuey on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:43 am

Little late coming in on the subject of doing back to back hard days. Just for what it is worth I also do the back to back hard days from time to time. There are even times that I actually have them planned into my training. One of the things that reminded myself when I do this is to make sure to eat a good high carb meal after the first hard workout. That way I'm getting my glycogen stores back up and ready to go for the next hard workout. If you don't you do run the risk of going into that next hard workout with low glycogen stores and therefore could feel sluggish on that run.

Also if you have them Pfitzinger talks about this subject in his book Advanced Marathoning and Daniels also talks about it in Daniels' Running Formula.

I do think that by doing them the right way John you will see some great benefits from doing the back to back. I love it you are always tweaking your training and looking for ways to keep it fresh but at the same time looking for improvement out of yourself. Keep it buddy.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:49 pm

Michele - thanks. She flies out this weekend and starts work Monday, hopefully she'll like it a lot.

Seth - Sorry you will miss 2012 but I have confidence you will be there in 2013, you're driven.

Randy - thanks for the well wishes. I've watched your blog for a long time and have seen the remarkable improvements you've made.

Martin - thanks. It does seem that as long as they aren't a regular occurence, back-to-back hard workouts are OK, and they let us get the training in when life otherwise tries to take away the time we have available. That's a good point on the high carbs, I hadn't thought of that.

Today I was still undecided on which workout to perform and in the end, I went with the ten miler scheduled this week. It was supposed to be an easy run but on hills. There are very few hills by me and I don't have time in the morning before work to drive to Barrington Hills to run. So I ran a somewhat inclined route to the health club and did three miles with lots of incline on the TM, and then ran back home. Good run today and I am feeling better each day now.

Run to the health club:
Split
Time


);;


Miles
10:09:001
20:08:541
30:08:541
40:04:060.45
Summary0:30:563.45

At the health club, I did 3.1 miles at 9:05 pace with lots of inclines.

Run back:

SplitTimeMiles
10:09:001
20:08:521
30:08:551
40:03:520.42
Summary3.42


Total for the day, 10 miles.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Alex Kubacki on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:38 pm

That was a great chart showing those drops in your marathon times. I'm hoping for a similiar progression.

I used to live in New Bedford when I went to school down there.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Kenny B. on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:33 pm

Thanks for explanation. I now see it.

Good job today on the run. Simple but purposeful.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:46 pm

Well, today I had the workout that I was struggling to fit in this week but I was running out of real estate with it being the weekend. Due to a late opportunity to golf this morning, I could not do this in the morning. It was really helpful that temps moderated to 75 degrees by late afternoon and that it was completely cloudy. The planned workout was another fartlek workout, eight reps of two minutes at 10K pace and then three minutes of recovery.

Warm up - 3.57 miles (ran to the track) - avg pace of 8:39, HR = 130 (75% of max)
Intervals - 2.35 miles - avg pace of 6:49, HR = 148 (86% of max)
Recovery - 2.4 miles - avg pace of 8:45, HR = 133 (77% of max)
Cool down - 2.5 miles (ran back home) - avg pace of 8:54, HR = 131 (75% of max)

Total = 10.75 miles
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Kenny B. on Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:52 pm

@JohnP wrote:Well, today I had the workout that I was struggling to fit in this week but I was running out of real estate with it being the weekend. Due to a late opportunity to golf this morning, I could not do this in the morning. It was really helpful that temps moderated to 75 degrees by late afternoon and that it was completely cloudy. The planned workout was another fartlek workout, eight reps of two minutes at 10K pace and then three minutes of recovery.

Warm up - 3.57 miles (ran to the track) - avg pace of 8:39, HR = 130 (75% of max)
Intervals - 2.35 miles - avg pace of 6:49, HR = 148 (86% of max)
Recovery - 2.4 miles - avg pace of 8:45, HR = 133 (77% of max)
Cool down - 2.5 miles (ran back home) - avg pace of 8:54, HR = 131 (75% of max)

Total = 10.75 miles

Solid workout nice job.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Schuey on Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:57 pm

@JohnP wrote:Well, today I had the workout that I was struggling to fit in this week but I was running out of real estate with it being the weekend. Due to a late opportunity to golf this morning, I could not do this in the morning. It was really helpful that temps moderated to 75 degrees by late afternoon and that it was completely cloudy. The planned workout was another fartlek workout, eight reps of two minutes at 10K pace and then three minutes of recovery.

Warm up - 3.57 miles (ran to the track) - avg pace of 8:39, HR = 130 (75% of max)
Intervals - 2.35 miles - avg pace of 6:49, HR = 148 (86% of max)
Recovery - 2.4 miles - avg pace of 8:45, HR = 133 (77% of max)
Cool down - 2.5 miles (ran back home) - avg pace of 8:54, HR = 131 (75% of max)

Total = 10.75 miles

John I know I know I know I have said it before to you in your blogs and in person but the improvements you have made and continue to make are awesome. Today's run is just another example of this and what happens when one continues to put in the work and allows the improvements to happen. Great run today John!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Mrs. Schuey on Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:01 pm

Great job on the run, John! What did you shoot today?
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:27 pm

@Mrs. Schuey wrote:Great job on the run, John! What did you shoot today?

Hi Lisa, I shot an 81, which is about as good as it gets for me, usually I am 85-95. So it was a good day of golf!

Thanks Martin and Kenny. I can tell putting five solid workouts back to back without recovery is tough but tomorrow should be a recovery run so that should make things fine.

Today - the long run called for only 12 miles with the last three at pace. I feel I should be doing longer runs than 12-13 on the weekend and assume it will ramp up soon. Heck, I was doing 15 milers most weeks before the program started. I took this easy today as the week's workouts were a little tough. 9 miles at about 9:13 pace and then three miles at 8:00 pace. Total 12 miles.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Mrs. Schuey on Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:55 pm

Great job John, both with the golf (wonderful score, btw) and with the running! I like how you said, "only 12 miles". You are definitely a runner and a great one at that!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Tom H on Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:37 pm

An 81 after five back-to-back solid workouts says you have a really strong overall conditioning as you need solid control from the feet all the way to the neck to shoot well. Sounds like a great week from many angles!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:39 pm

OK, last few days:

Monday - 6.9 miles easy/recovery 9:34 pace. The first two were a little fast for recovery but then I reined it in. HR = 120 (70%)

Tuesday - tempo cruise intervals
Warm up - 2.68 miles 8:56 pace HR 126 (73%)
5 sets of (6 minutes at HMP (7:30) HR=142 (82%), then 2 minutes at 9:30 HR=128 (74%))
This totaled 3 miles at tempo, 1.88 miles at recovery
Warm down - 2.64 miles at 9:04 pace HR 128 (74%)
Total = 10.1 miles

I did the warm up and cool down outside but did the intervals on the TM. I've been doing all workouts on the track the past few months and I am going too fast on all my intervals. I really believe in tempo runs so thought this should be on a TM to get the pace correct.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Alex Kubacki on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:27 am

Great job with the tempo. 5 sets at HMP is excellent.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Julie on Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:06 am

Great training! I agree with needing to fuel when you do back to back hard or long runs. And maybe taking a little bit of food with you if you're not sure. I had a couple of pretzels this a.m. because I just needed some more energy.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:06 pm

@JohnP wrote:OK, last few days:

Monday - 6.9 miles easy/recovery 9:34 pace. The first two were a little fast for recovery but then I reined it in. HR = 120 (70%)

Tuesday - tempo cruise intervals
Warm up - 2.68 miles 8:56 pace HR 126 (73%)
5 sets of (6 minutes at HMP (7:30) HR=142 (82%), then 2 minutes at 9:30 HR=128 (74%))
This totaled 3 miles at tempo, 1.88 miles at recovery
Warm down - 2.64 miles at 9:04 pace HR 128 (74%)
Total = 10.1 miles

I did the warm up and cool down outside but did the intervals on the TM. I've been doing all workouts on the track the past few months and I am going too fast on all my intervals. I really believe in tempo runs so thought this should be on a TM to get the pace correct.


Good job on the recovery and slowing down if need be to keep in zone 70% seems fine. I like to be between 65-70% (130-140)

Tuesday's run loosk solid for 10+ miles. Strong tempo run like the style of it!
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:31 pm

Thanks Alex - I feel like I should just run the whole thing continuously as a tempo but I guess the training program is still in the early portion so it is working up to that using the intervals.

Thanks Julie - I try to keep a Gu with me for any runs over 10 miles just in case I need one.

Thanks Kenny - anything less than 70% feels like I am walking

Catch-up on training:
Wednesday - mid-week longer run, ten miles. I had an early meeting so had to do this after work. It was a bit warm out but not bad. THis was supposed to be "light" which I take to mean slower than "easy". Anyway, I averaged 9:13/mile, total time = 1:32:06 with HR of 133 (77%)

Thursday - thankfully only a seven miler today, was able to get this in before work. Total = 7.28 miles, 1:03:33, 8:44/mile, HR 121 (70%). 30 seconds a mile faster than yesterday but a much lower HR. This is because it was cooler in the morning, plus yesterday I had a bigger lunch which makes the evening run harder. This is the same HR I had on a recovery run earlier in the week which was 45 seconds slower so I guess this is good.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Kenny B. on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:44 pm

@JohnP wrote:

Thursday - thankfully only a seven miler today, was able to get this in before work. Total = 7.28 miles, 1:03:33, 8:44/mile, HR 121 (70%). 30 seconds a mile faster than yesterday but a much lower HR. This is because it was cooler in the morning, plus yesterday I had a bigger lunch which makes the evening run harder. This is the same HR I had on a recovery run earlier in the week which was 45 seconds slower so I guess this is good.

HR at 70% pace 8:44 wow. Seems pretty good to me.
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  JohnP on Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Kenny - one thing I've learned - if I run in the morning, my HR is always lower. It's also lower on the TM. It's always higher in evening workouts. That's why I sort of go by pace rather than HR though I do keep track of it. Like you, I use it to tell if I'm tired, over training, getting sick, etc.

Today was a good workout. It was mid-70s early in the morning and 78 when I finished. But the sun wasn't too strong. The plan was for a moderate workout - 2 x 3 mile progression from MP to HMP. I thought this would be a good way for me to learn pacing better. Again, I did the 2x3 at the track as when I run on the roads, I lose focus on the time due to watching for cars, bumps in the grass, etc.


Split Time DistanceAvg Pace Avg HR %
10:09:2219:2211265% Warm up
20:09:0019:0012170% Warm up
30:00:540.19:1711969% Warm up
40:07:5917:5913076% MP
50:07:4317:4314182% MP-15
60:07:2817:2814584% HMP
70:01:590.0921:0911969% Recovery
80:07:5517:5513578% MP
90:07:4417:4414283% MP-15
100:07:2617:2614785% HMP
110:09:2119:2113277% Warm down
120:08:4418:4413277% Warm down
130:00:580.119:1713076% Warm down
Summary1:26:3810.3
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Re: Running Chicago, for me

Post  Julie on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:08 pm

another great run! Congrats and enjoy the weekend!
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