Relative newbie - more miles in due time?

Hey everybody! I need some advice. I still consider myself a relative newbie to running (only have one half under my belt) and I am feeling somewhat confused and discouraged. My long run mileage is now up to 14 miles. I took today's 14 miler super slow in hopes that it would make things easier on my body, but nope, towards the end I still wasn't all that comfortable. I won't even tell you how slow I took this run because my pace is nowhere near any of yours, nor is my weekly mileage. I have a half in 2 weeks and another one 7 weeks after that. I am hoping to do Twin Cities full this October but I am finding 12-14 miles pretty challenging. My cardio & energy levels during runs are fine - I feel like I could run forever, but my musculoskeletal system says otherwise. Some days I question whether I am built to run long distances. Do you think it's just a matter of spending more time on my legs, putting in the miles, or would removing one run a week to allow room/time for strengthening exercises be the key to extending myself to 16, 18, and 20 miles by the fall? Do you remember how you did it when you first got into running? I assume I have to be patient with the process, and I am trying but some days are harder than others. Moving up from 6 to 8 to 10 miles last year was so much easier for me than I am finding 10 to 12 to 14.

I think you're doing fine. And I don't think you're really slow either. I remember my first 14 miler. I thought I was going to die and when a few others in the group said they were going 18 miles I asked the lady who had invited me to run with the group if they were serious. It seemed super human. Just follow the schedule, run your long runs slowly and if you're tired it's OK. Try to sleep extra and eat a good meal the night before.

What exactly in your musculoskeletal system is telling you that it isn't happy with long runs? What surface are you running on? What shoes are you wearing? Do they need to be changed (too many miles already on them?)?

I wouldn't throw out the idea of a marathon this early in the season. Twin Cities isn't till October. Are you feeling like you're getting injured or more just sore?

I've always felt like 14, 15 and 16 milers were my hardest runs. I'd much rather either do 12 or 13, or 17 and up. I don't know why that is, but I sometimes struggle with those shorter "long" runs. My first marathon training cycle, I thought I was going to die on my 16 miler, but felt great on the 18 I ran next. Who knows? I expect that if you stick with it, you will be fine, unless you have some truly limiting physical issue.

What kind of schedule are you running? Don't worry about speed, just go slow, maybe even slower than you're already going. As the miles stretch out, it really pays off to start even slower.

Julie wrote:I think you're doing fine. And I don't think you're really slow either. I remember my first 14 miler. I thought I was going to die and when a few others in the group said they were going 18 miles I asked the lady who had invited me to run with the group if they were serious. It seemed super human. Just follow the schedule, run your long runs slowly and if you're tired it's OK. Try to sleep extra and eat a good meal the night before.

Hahahaha I can relate to your story about the others running 18mi.

Julie wrote:What exactly in your musculoskeletal system is telling you that it isn't happy with long runs? What surface are you running on? What shoes are you wearing? Do they need to be changed (too many miles already on them?)?

I run mostly on asphalt and concrete and am beginning to wonder if my body is more similar to Wendy's... better for trail running. Unfortunately for me to hit trails would be a bit of a trip but I may consider making that transition. My shoes are Kinvaras and have less than 100 miles on them. My musculoskeletal system is basically revolting with sore-ish ITBs at the end of my long runs and sometimes my knees are sore across the top of my knee cap, not under. Last year my hips used to get andy but I rarely feel things in my hips anymore.

Julie wrote:I wouldn't throw out the idea of a marathon this early in the season. Twin Cities isn't till October. Are you feeling like you're getting injured or more just sore?

No I don't think I am getting injured although I do have to watch my shins every now and again (old injury & problem spot). Tempos runs set me back with my shins so I don't mess with high-intensity runs which also frustrates me. I'll just have to leave that pace for racing. When I'm not running I am not all that sore either, I just find those long runs bring out niggles in my body.

Thanks Julie.

Keep at the longer runs -- including a mid-week sorta long (at least 90 minutes). The endurance will come, but it's not a one cycle thing. I always found it helpful to take the day after a long run off.

Michael Enright wrote:I've always felt like 14, 15 and 16 milers were my hardest runs. I'd much rather either do 12 or 13, or 17 and up. I don't know why that is, but I sometimes struggle with those shorter "long" runs. My first marathon training cycle, I thought I was going to die on my 16 miler, but felt great on the 18 I ran next. Who knows? I expect that if you stick with it, you will be fine, unless you have some truly limiting physical issue.

Ya I guess some runs are just better than others. The up & down nature of running makes training challenging sometimes.

Michael Enright wrote:What kind of schedule are you running? Don't worry about speed, just go slow, maybe even slower than you're already going. As the miles stretch out, it really pays off to start even slower.

I'm using the intermediate plan from http://www.marathon-training-tips.com/12-week-half-marathon-training-schedule.html but I don't do the tempos runs or the cross-training. I did one tempo run a couple of weeks and it felt great during the run but my old injury flared up so I now just make those runs regular runs. I'll continue to keep things slow although I can't go much slower than I did today and my body was angrier than it has been on faster 13 milers. I don't think I truly have a physical issue other than I need time to let my body get used to the mileage, if that's reasonable & possible for me. It seems as though all my running friends can do much higher mileage and faster paces than I... I think I need to get slower friends. Haha.

Kinerva's are awfully lightweight for major mileage if you are not used to it. I run in those and lots of other real light shoes every day but it took several years to build up to that. I would recommend something very cushioned like the Ascis Gel Nimbus or the Nike Lunar Eclipse. I wouldn't use any shoe under 10.0 ounces for runs of 10 miles or more until you run 5+ long runs in the heavily cushioned ones with no discomfort. Progrid Kinarva 2s are 6.5 ounces so if you are running in those and not used to long runs in so little shoe, its no wonder your body will rebel.

I remember that I began my running on a treadmill and gradually switched to running on roads over 4-5 months. I will never forget the first time I ran 8 miles - I was SO proud of myself that I did it without walking. I really think the treadmill saved shin splints. I'm not a seasoned runner by any means, but it seems reasonable that we can all progress pretty slowly with mileage and it probably takes several years of running for our bodies to truly adjust. And even then injuries are just a part of it all for many - I agree that trails would be nice, but I don't have any remotely close so it is the road for me. Why do you think you are that slow? My guess is there are a lot of people that look at you like you are fast. I have to remind myself too that what seems like nothing on these boards (when we look at what some people are able to accomplish mileage wise) is actually crazy long runs for a lot of people. You are running 5 days a week? That is nothing to shake a stick at. As far as the shoe thing goes, if it is within your means, you might find that rotating 2 or more pairs of shoes (even different types of shoes) might make things feel a little better. Sorry that things are going a little rough and I hope they get easier over time. I think with consistency they might even if you have to back down a little and give the body more time to develop. I need those words for myself too!!!!

Good luck.

Chris M wrote:Kinerva's are awfully lightweight for major mileage if you are not used to it. I run in those and lots of other real light shoes every day but it took several years to build up to that. I would recommend something very cushioned like the Ascis Gel Nimbus or the Nike Lunar Eclipse. I wouldn't use any shoe under 10.0 ounces for runs of 10 miles or more until you run 5+ long runs in the heavily cushioned ones with no discomfort. Progrid Kinarva 2s are 6.5 ounces so if you are running in those and not used to long runs in so little shoe, its no wonder your body will rebel.

+1 - I thought the same thing. Love the shoes, but I can't put a lot of miles in on them with my running style...

Chris M wrote:Kinerva's are awfully lightweight for major mileage if you are not used to it. I run in those and lots of other real light shoes every day but it took several years to build up to that. I would recommend something very cushioned like the Ascis Gel Nimbus or the Nike Lunar Eclipse. I wouldn't use any shoe under 10.0 ounces for runs of 10 miles or more until you run 5+ long runs in the heavily cushioned ones with no discomfort. Progrid Kinarva 2s are 6.5 ounces so if you are running in those and not used to long runs in so little shoe, its no wonder your body will rebel.

This was exactly my thought. I didn't move into anything lighter than the 10 oz. Chris suggest until I already had 2 marathons under my belt. Those shoes (Kinvaras and Frees specifically) do have their purpose, but I would definitely look at something a bit more cushioned, especially for longer runs.

Back in High school my longest runs were 10 mi. My freshman year in college(1977) I took a PE course called Aerobic conditioning. The grad student teacher was a Olympic trials qualifier. I used to run with him and some others. He once took us on a long farlek run and tricked me into running 14 mi with them, I was completely spent when I got back to the dorm, they continued on. It is definitely a gradual process, so be patient with yourself. The worst thing many new runners do is try to increase too soon. You are doing the right thing by listening to your body and readjusting your schedule.

Chris M wrote:Kinerva's are awfully lightweight for major mileage if you are not used to it. I run in those and lots of other real light shoes every day but it took several years to build up to that. I would recommend something very cushioned like the Ascis Gel Nimbus or the Nike Lunar Eclipse. I wouldn't use any shoe under 10.0 ounces for runs of 10 miles or more until you run 5+ long runs in the heavily cushioned ones with no discomfort. Progrid Kinarva 2s are 6.5 ounces so if you are running in those and not used to long runs in so little shoe, its no wonder your body will rebel.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I never once considered I needed more shoe to help me as the miles increase. I've been in the Kinvara for 1.5 years and really like the 4mm heel to toe drop. Would moving up to a more cushioned shoe with possibly a greater heel to drop require me to enter into that kind of shoe gradually like you have to do when going down in the heel drop?

John Kilpatrick wrote:I remember that I began my running on a treadmill and gradually switched to running on roads over 4-5 months. I will never forget the first time I ran 8 miles - I was SO proud of myself that I did it without walking. I really think the treadmill saved shin splints. I'm not a seasoned runner by any means, but it seems reasonable that we can all progress pretty slowly with mileage and it probably takes several years of running for our bodies to truly adjust. And even then injuries are just a part of it all for many - I agree that trails would be nice, but I don't have any remotely close so it is the road for me. Why do you think you are that slow? My guess is there are a lot of people that look at you like you are fast. I have to remind myself too that what seems like nothing on these boards (when we look at what some people are able to accomplish mileage wise) is actually crazy long runs for a lot of people. You are running 5 days a week? That is nothing to shake a stick at. As far as the shoe thing goes, if it is within your means, you might find that rotating 2 or more pairs of shoes (even different types of shoes) might make things feel a little better. Sorry that things are going a little rough and I hope they get easier over time. I think with consistency they might even if you have to back down a little and give the body more time to develop. I need those words for myself too!!!!

Good luck.

Thanks John! Ya I guess I just need to be patient. I am running 5 times a week and it has been going well up until recently. I guess yesterday's 14 miles kicking the crap out of me kinda caught me off guard. As for thinking I'm slow it comes from comparing myself to my crazy fast runner friends and the kinds of paces & miles many of you do here on 365Runners. I know I shouldn't make comparisons. I think I need to find slower friends. Hehehe

fostever wrote:Back in High school my longest runs were 10 mi. My freshman year in college(1977) I took a PE course called Aerobic conditioning. The grad student teacher was a Olympic trials qualifier. I used to run with him and some others. He once took us on a long farlek run and tricked me into running 14 mi with them, I was completely spent when I got back to the dorm, they continued on. It is definitely a gradual process, so be patient with yourself. The worst thing many new runners do is try to increase too soon. You are doing the right thing by listening to your body and readjusting your schedule.

Sounds good... I will try to be patient and take it easy. I wish I never took all those years off from running after high school. I think I'm paying for it now.

Regarding shoes, it is a bit more complicated than what has been said above... The right shoe depsends on your natural gait, strike, and pronation. For example if you are a true forefoot or midfoot striker, Kinvaras are the softest shoe I have ever worn, and the Nimbus are on the harder side. If the Kinvaras are right for you, the wear pattern will show this - the heel will still have a near new appearance, and the forefoot to toe will be very worn. (This applies to the Kinvara 1&2, the 3 has more heel cushion and improve wear according to the manufacturer)

Your long runs are going to be tough for some time, uncomfortable, but not painful.

Regarding mileage build, I went from 0 to 70 mile weeks in about a year, and then to 80-90 mile weeks a year after that, so I'm not an expert on taking it slow. Though many of the people on here running substantial mileage have been running for a long time, or were athletes. For example, I played soccer for decades before I started running; I played year round in high school and college club - soccer shoes are pretty minimal. So, I think it takes adult athletes additional time to build mileage, if they were not an athlete in their youth.

After my first marathon, I was lazy to follow any plan. So besides one soccer game, I did 5 milesx3 plus a 10(I actually did 8.5 as I didn't have Garmin and estimated the distance.), and saw significant fitness improvement. So I am thinking since the marathon is in Oct, you have plenty of time and for now no need to
push beyond 12-14 miles range, which is an excellent workout. Let the time do the work.

Good luck!

No more advice from me as I think everyone has given you excellent advice. Just remember that some days are good and some are not so good. One day you will run that same 14 miler and it will seem so easy, you'll be shocked that you typed your post. Just keep sticking with it and listen to your body and adjust. Also make sure to pay careful attention to nutrition and hydration. I often will have a long run where I have not hydrated enough and will be very achy afterwards. You have plenty of time before October, and if you keep going as you are, you will be fine at TCM!

mul21 wrote: I didn't move into anything lighter than the 10 oz. Chris suggest until I already had 2 marathons under my belt. Those shoes (Kinvaras and Frees specifically) do have their purpose, but I would definitely look at something a bit more cushioned, especially for longer runs.

I picked up a pair of Brooks Raveena's yesterday. Sure is weird to see & feel so much shoe again but they're in the 10oz range so this should help me. I will keep the Kinvaras in the rotation but now I have a shoe that'll help my body acclimatize. I wonder how weird it's going to be going from 4mm heel-to-toe drop back up to 10mm. Hopefully easier than going down.

Gobbles wrote:Regarding shoes, it is a bit more complicated than what has been said above... The right shoe depsends on your natural gait, strike, and pronation. For example if you are a true forefoot or midfoot striker, Kinvaras are the softest shoe I have ever worn, and the Nimbus are on the harder side. If the Kinvaras are right for you, the wear pattern will show this - the heel will still have a near new appearance, and the forefoot to toe will be very worn. (This applies to the Kinvara 1&2, the 3 has more heel cushion and improve wear according to the manufacturer)

I checked a few of my old Kinvaras and they have lots of wear under the big toe and some throughout the forefoot and a bit on the inner back heel. That surprised me. I thought I was more of a mid foot striker.

Gobbles wrote:Though many of the people on here running substantial mileage have been running for a long time, or were athletes. For example, I played soccer for decades before I started running; I played year round in high school and college club - soccer shoes are pretty minimal. So, I think it takes adult athletes additional time to build mileage, if they were not an athlete in their youth.

I will be patient with my body as I adjust. I wish I had never stopped running although that may be why it's so enjoyable for me now.

Jerry wrote:After my first marathon, I was lazy to follow any plan. So besides one soccer game, I did 5 milesx3 plus a 10(I actually did 8.5 as I didn't have Garmin and estimated the distance.), and saw significant fitness improvement. So I am thinking since the marathon is in Oct, you have plenty of time and for now no need to push beyond 12-14 miles range, which is an excellent workout. Let the time do the work.

Good luck!

Thanks Jerry! I appreciate you saying that!! But no funny comment?

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:No more advice from me as I think everyone has given you excellent advice. Just remember that some days are good and some are not so good. One day you will run that same 14 miler and it will seem so easy, you'll be shocked that you typed your post. Just keep sticking with it and listen to your body and adjust. Also make sure to pay careful attention to nutrition and hydration. I often will have a long run where I have not hydrated enough and will be very achy afterwards. You have plenty of time before October, and if you keep going as you are, you will be fine at TCM!

Thanks Michele! I think that 14 miler was one of those days... just bad for whatever reason. I am happy to report that one and two days later my body has rebounded surprisingly fast. That's gotta be a good sign.

The only thing to add might be: Never underestimate the ability of your body to adapt to what it is trained to do, especially if done so gradually, judiciously, and in small bites. Persistence is the key.

My first 10 miler ever remains one of my most vivid runs in my memory. I thought I wouldn't make it. The last two miles were hell. I finished the run thinking, "how I am ever going to run 13, let alone 26?!?!?"

Be patient. Distance running take a long time to get acclimated to. In all honesty, it took me 2 years before I felt "comfortable" doing long runs. This sport is definitely not for someone looking for immediate returns.

Dave brings up a good point that I think extends to any distance. There's always that hurdle to cross, and you will never stop meeting them. For me, I hit hurdles at 3mi, 6-7mi, 10mi, 16mi, and 20mi. Then, when I was running 3x 20+mi runs every week, 4hrs was the hurdle. Now, it's back to 20mi. Don't be afraid of them, but do respect them.

jon c wrote:The only thing to add might be: Never underestimate the ability of your body to adapt to what it is trained to do, especially if done so gradually, judiciously, and in small bites. Persistence is the key.

Well said Jon!! It has been a pleasant surprise this week to discover how quickly my body has bounced back. This didn't used to be the case.

Dave-O wrote:My first 10 miler ever remains one of my most vivid runs in my memory. I thought I wouldn't make it. The last two miles were hell. I finished the run thinking, "how I am ever going to run 13, let alone 26?!?!?"

Be patient. Distance running take a long time to get acclimated to. In all honesty, it took me 2 years before I felt "comfortable" doing long runs. This sport is definitely not for someone looking for immediate returns.

Wow, it is nice to know that even runners like you have wrestled with building mileage. Sounds like I'm right where I need to be.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Dave brings up a good point that I think extends to any distance. There's always that hurdle to cross, and you will never stop meeting them. For me, I hit hurdles at 3mi, 6-7mi, 10mi, 16mi, and 20mi. Then, when I was running 3x 20+mi runs every week, 4hrs was the hurdle. Now, it's back to 20mi. Don't be afraid of them, but do respect them.

That's a great way to look at it Mike! I'll be sure to respect these hurdles and even embrace them.

I think you're doing fine and I don't have any advice beyond what is mentioned above.

I can tell you that while training for my first marathon that my ankle's would feel crushed immediately after my long runs. I would ice them after every run. I haven't felt that sensation in the last several years. Your body will adapt to the stresses that you place on it.

Lots of great advice here!

I was feeling very much like you are a couple years ago. I realized two things. I couldn't handle running 4, 5 or 6 days a week. I cut down to 3 days of running and walked or cross trained for active recovery. I've been doing well and having fun. My body just needs a bit more recovery time.

The second thing I realized was that I needed to figure out how to hydrate and take in some energy on any runs over 90 minutes. I learned that if I expected the run to last 90 minutes or more I needed to stay hydrated and consume some sort of energy no later than 60 minutes into my run or I really struggled during those later miles.

Have fun!

T Miller wrote:I think you're doing fine and I don't have any advice beyond what is mentioned above.

I can tell you that while training for my first marathon that my ankle's would feel crushed immediately after my long runs. I would ice them after every run. I haven't felt that sensation in the last several years. Your body will adapt to the stresses that you place on it.

Good to hear that there is hope for me... hahahaha! It's also refreshing to hear that some of you high mileage & speedy, successful runners had challenges back at the beginning. Makes me feel like I am right on track.

nkrichards wrote:Lots of great advice here!

I was feeling very much like you are a couple years ago. I realized two things. I couldn't handle running 4, 5 or 6 days a week. I cut down to 3 days of running and walked or cross trained for active recovery. I've been doing well and having fun. My body just needs a bit more recovery time.

The second thing I realized was that I needed to figure out how to hydrate and take in some energy on any runs over 90 minutes. I learned that if I expected the run to last 90 minutes or more I needed to stay hydrated and consume some sort of energy no later than 60 minutes into my run or I really struggled during those later miles.

Have fun!

I guess it all comes down to learning about works for each individual runner. I too think I need more recovery time than some other runners but I am also noticing that my need for recovery has been slowly decreasing which can only be a good thing.

Thanks for the encouragement and advice everyone!!

Slower runner here. I also run just 3 days a week and I might get to 40 mpw, when my long run is 20. Your body does take time to adjust, as it's part of the process. Taking one day out of running to do strengthening would be a good thing, as the core exercises and other strengthening will put less burden on your running muscles being required to support your body, too.

Which marathon training plan will you be using? IMO, you should use a beginner marathon plan because it's your first. Also, your goal should be just to finish, meaning no time goal. You have to respect the distance. Hal's beginner plan will get you to the finish line.

You'll be fine. We'll be here.

ounce wrote:Slower runner here. I also run just 3 days a week and I might get to 40 mpw, when my long run is 20. Your body does take time to adjust, as it's part of the process. Taking one day out of running to do strengthening would be a good thing, as the core exercises and other strengthening will put less burden on your running muscles being required to support your body, too.

Which marathon training plan will you be using? IMO, you should use a beginner marathon plan because it's your first. Also, your goal should be just to finish, meaning no time goal. You have to respect the distance. Hal's beginner plan will get you to the finish line.

You'll be fine. We'll be here.

Thanks Ounce... I will get back into the strengthening & core exercises!

I am thinking about using Hal's Intermediate 1 plan although I will bump it back to Novice 1 depending on how my body adjusts. Right now the mileage during the week that I run matches Intermediate 1 nicely but as I increase my long run distance I am not sure if I'll be able to keep with Intermediate 1. Time will tell. I will adjust accordingly. The Novice plans just don't seem like enough when I am already running 5 days a week now and run more weekly mileage than what the Novice plan calls for. Seems like a step back to me. I know my only goal should be to finish and it is, but I would also like to feel prepared and that's why Intermediate 1 appeals to me more. I have a half this weekend and then again in 6 weeks. How those races go along with my training will be the deciding factor of whether I will use the Novice or Intermediate plan.