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Increasing turnover rate

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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Mark B on Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:57 pm

@Tim C wrote:So I read this blog again as I've been trying to work on increasing my cadence.  I'm typically around 164 and getting to anything in the 170's feels incredibly awkward.  It also seems to be much more work for me.  I got one of those little $12 metronome things and have done a couple of runs with it at 172 or 174 (actually 86 or 87 - every right foot strike) and I'm completely worn out after 3 or 4 miles of doing this.

However, almost everyone I run with is both faster than I am and less injury prone.  They ALL have much faster turnover than I do, to the point I will follow one of them and try to mirror their turnover and can usually only keep it up for a few seconds.  Maybe it's like anything else - consistent practice may make it come easier.....But it seems like any change in running style is supposed to make it feel easier - not harder...
Practice can help, Tim, but I have to admit that the one thing that really helped me learn to speed up my turnover (and land with less impact) was to experiment with running barefoot. Even if you did it for a hundred yards or so (I'd do laps around the block), it'd help you get a feel for the faster cadence that comes naturally when you don't have a big cushion under your foot.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Tim C on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:25 pm

@Mark B wrote:
@Tim C wrote:So I read this blog again as I've been trying to work on increasing my cadence.  I'm typically around 164 and getting to anything in the 170's feels incredibly awkward.  It also seems to be much more work for me.  I got one of those little $12 metronome things and have done a couple of runs with it at 172 or 174 (actually 86 or 87 - every right foot strike) and I'm completely worn out after 3 or 4 miles of doing this.

However, almost everyone I run with is both faster than I am and less injury prone.  They ALL have much faster turnover than I do, to the point I will follow one of them and try to mirror their turnover and can usually only keep it up for a few seconds.  Maybe it's like anything else - consistent practice may make it come easier.....But it seems like any change in running style is supposed to make it feel easier - not harder...
Practice can help, Tim, but I have to admit that the one thing that really helped me learn to speed up my turnover (and land with less impact) was to experiment with running barefoot. Even if you did it for a hundred yards or so (I'd do laps around the block), it'd help you get a feel for the faster cadence that comes naturally when you don't have a big cushion under your foot.
Ha!  I'd have to find a carpeted hall 100 yards long.  Me have serious case of tenderfoot...

Good suggestion though.  I just may try that.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Mark B on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:50 pm

@Tim C wrote:
@Mark B wrote:
@Tim C wrote:So I read this blog again as I've been trying to work on increasing my cadence.  I'm typically around 164 and getting to anything in the 170's feels incredibly awkward.  It also seems to be much more work for me.  I got one of those little $12 metronome things and have done a couple of runs with it at 172 or 174 (actually 86 or 87 - every right foot strike) and I'm completely worn out after 3 or 4 miles of doing this.

However, almost everyone I run with is both faster than I am and less injury prone.  They ALL have much faster turnover than I do, to the point I will follow one of them and try to mirror their turnover and can usually only keep it up for a few seconds.  Maybe it's like anything else - consistent practice may make it come easier.....But it seems like any change in running style is supposed to make it feel easier - not harder...
Practice can help, Tim, but I have to admit that the one thing that really helped me learn to speed up my turnover (and land with less impact) was to experiment with running barefoot. Even if you did it for a hundred yards or so (I'd do laps around the block), it'd help you get a feel for the faster cadence that comes naturally when you don't have a big cushion under your foot.
Ha!  I'd have to find a carpeted hall 100 yards long.  Me have serious case of tenderfoot...

Good suggestion though.  I just may try that.
Y'see, that whole "tenderfoot" bit is why it might help. Nothing like going "Yi! Yi! Yi" for a while to get your feet moving fast. Smile
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:12 pm

Interesting, we were talking about cadence on our long hilly run yesterday, and I was right on at 182 even at the long run pace.  I then did a quicker mile today at the end of my run (8:10) and I was still at 182.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  nkrichards on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:23 pm

@Tim C wrote:So I read this blog again as I've been trying to work on increasing my cadence.  I'm typically around 164 and getting to anything in the 170's feels incredibly awkward.  It also seems to be much more work for me.  I got one of those little $12 metronome things and have done a couple of runs with it at 172 or 174 (actually 86 or 87 - every right foot strike) and I'm completely worn out after 3 or 4 miles of doing this.

However, almost everyone I run with is both faster than I am and less injury prone.  They ALL have much faster turnover than I do, to the point I will follow one of them and try to mirror their turnover and can usually only keep it up for a few seconds.  Maybe it's like anything else - consistent practice may make it come easier.....But it seems like any change in running style is supposed to make it feel easier - not harder...
Tim,

My experience is/was a mirror image of yours.  I started feeling twinges that I didn't like and abandoned the metronome and the effort to increase cadence.  But I will admit that I have been able to increase my cadence on the bike...not where I should be yet but I'm closer.  So maybe I can increase my running cadence as well.  I may try again...after this training cycle is complete.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Chris M on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:51 pm

It shouldn't feel twingy or difficult. It will feel "strange" because you are taking little tiny mincing steps. Imagine rubber bands tied between your legs that just do not allow you to open up your stride and reach forward or back too far. Your feet never leave being right under your body because you are taking little baby steps the whole time. Like taking every stair going up a staircase instead of leaping over every other one. Not more difficult, just different. But the payoff comes after a few weeks of getting used to that and making it the new "normal". You'll have eliminated the overstriding that a cadence rate in the 160s clearly indicates. And eliminating overstriding will cut WAY down on the ways you can hurt yourself running. People make think it looks funny to take this little tiny strides but cadence is that one consistent thing you'll see from bulletproof runners at all speeds. Totally and completely worth the effort.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  nkrichards on Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:59 pm

@Chris M wrote:It shouldn't feel twingy or difficult.  It will feel "strange" because you are taking little tiny mincing steps.  Imagine rubber bands tied between your legs that just do not allow you to open up your stride and reach forward or back too far.  Your feet never leave being right under your body because you are taking little baby steps the whole time.  Like taking every stair going up a staircase instead of leaping over every other one.  Not more difficult, just different.  But the payoff comes after a few weeks of getting used to that and making it the new "normal".   You'll have eliminated the overstriding that a cadence rate in the 160s clearly indicates.  And eliminating overstriding will cut WAY down on the ways you can hurt yourself running.  People make think it looks funny to take this little tiny strides but cadence is that one consistent thing you'll see from bulletproof runners at all speeds.  Totally and completely worth the effort.  
I will admit that I didn't really allow enough time for an honest effort.  Not a good time to try and make any changes right now but I would like to try again.  I think that the experience I've had on the bike may help.  My swim coach labeled me as a slow twitch person right off the bat though.  Apparently I have a strong but slow stroke.   Tough to teach an old dog new tricks but this winter might be a good time to try.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Jerry on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:38 pm

@nkrichards wrote:
@Chris M wrote:It shouldn't feel twingy or difficult.  It will feel "strange" because you are taking little tiny mincing steps.  Imagine rubber bands tied between your legs that just do not allow you to open up your stride and reach forward or back too far.  Your feet never leave being right under your body because you are taking little baby steps the whole time.  Like taking every stair going up a staircase instead of leaping over every other one.  Not more difficult, just different.  But the payoff comes after a few weeks of getting used to that and making it the new "normal".   You'll have eliminated the overstriding that a cadence rate in the 160s clearly indicates.  And eliminating overstriding will cut WAY down on the ways you can hurt yourself running.  People make think it looks funny to take this little tiny strides but cadence is that one consistent thing you'll see from bulletproof runners at all speeds.  Totally and completely worth the effort.  
I will admit that I didn't really allow enough time for an honest effort.  Not a good time to try and make any changes right now but I would like to try again.  I think that the experience I've had on the bike may help.  My swim coach labeled me as a slow twitch person right off the bat though.  Apparently I have a strong but slow stroke.   Tough to teach an old dog new tricks but this winter might be a good time to try.
This is about neuromuscular response instead of speed. 180 is not a high number at all. A 3 hour marathon is  indeed very slow, 25 seconds per 100 meters. The difficulty is to repeat it again and again. So if you do want to try, the first thing is to eliminate the wrong mindset. It's very easy to have 180 cadence. The difficulty is to repeat it again and again, but this time it's more of a mind game instead stamina in the 3 hour marathon case.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Dave-O on Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:18 pm

Start doing 8 x 100 strides twice a week, at about 95% effort. When you sprint, your turnover will be even higher, so you're working on the neuromuscular aspect of quick strides. 

Also, envision running on hot coals. I notice a lot of new runners spend so much time with their feet on the ground.  if you're focusing on your entire stride cycle, your foot should explode off the ground and forward.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  nkrichards on Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:06 am

@Dave-O wrote:Start doing 8 x 100 strides twice a week, at about 95% effort. When you sprint, your turnover will be even higher, so you're working on the neuromuscular aspect of quick strides. 

Also, envision running on hot coals. I notice a lot of new runners spend so much time with their feet on the ground.  if you're focusing on your entire stride cycle, your foot should explode off the ground and forward.
Thanks Dave...I like the sounds of that much more than that annoying metronome.  I'm anxious to give it a try.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Tim C on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:16 pm

Thanks for all of the replies.  I used my little metronome on every run this week, set it at 180, and found that I could actually run at that cadence.  It took effort at first but was actually fairly easy to do today.  In fact, after running a couple of miles at an easy 9:00 pace, I went to speed up and actually found that I was turning over faster than 180!

I do feel that I'm working harder though, as though I'm having to breathe harder than normal for the given pace.  I'll keep working at it and hopefully that will go away as it becomes more second nature to me.

It does feel like baby steps but given the knee issues I've has in the past, this has got to be a good thing for me to work on.

Thanks again.
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Re: Increasing turnover rate

Post  Jerry on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:35 pm

Too bored on TM today, measured several times from 11:06 pace to sub 7, grade from 1 to 4%, I did 200 on sub 7, others 176 to 184. I have not run close to 7:00 for a long long time and feel the cadence was high cause I was "struggling" a little and forced to go too too "quick". If I were on the road, I could probably maintain a little lower cadence. But I am not sure.
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