Sub-3 Pre-Training Indicators?

With a month of 20+mpw behind me, I think things are headed in a good enough direction to start looking to the distant future of a sub-3 marathon.  

I'm going to try and take a page from the book of sensibility and run lots of easy miles until...  Well, that's the question.  At what point will I know if I'm ready to start training?  

Currently, I'm building towards:
M - 45min
T - 1hr
W - 45min
Th - 1hr+
F - off
S - 1hr+
S - 1.5-2hr

At that point, I'm pretty much going to maintain that sort of mileage - 45-55mpw - until I find a goal race and "know" I'm ready.  

So again, when do I "know"?  I've heard that 7:30s are a good "easy" pace for later in a training cycle, but after just a long base, would that be something closer to 7:45s?  8:00s?

Why so little time running each week?  I wouldn't think a particularly ideal marathon time could be run on 6 to 6.5 hours a week. 8-10 hours of running a week will better prep you for the distance, I think.   I would recommend slowing the pace down to 8:00 and slower but doing an hour each day and more like 2.5 on weekends.   Doing long runs of 15 miles or less with a day off each week and a couple of real short days is going to make it tough to run a marathon in line with your shorter races.  With your demonstrated speed, I would say you are simply 12 weeks of a 70 mpw average away from running sub3.  Gonna be hard to make it happen on less than that so why make it more difficult?

Chris M wrote:Why so little time running each week?  I wouldn't think a particularly ideal marathon time could be run on 6 to 6.5 hours a week. 8-10 hours of running a week will better prep you for the distance, I think.   I would recommend slowing the pace down to 8:00 and slower but doing an hour each day and more like 2.5 on weekends.   Doing long runs of 15 miles or less with a day off each week and a couple of real short days is going to make it tough to run a marathon in line with your shorter races.  With your demonstrated speed, I would say you are simply 12 weeks of a 70 mpw average away from running sub3.  Gonna be hard to make it happen on less than that so why make it more difficult?

That's just a pre marathon phase there you're looking at Chris.  He's going to add more when he starts actual marathon training, he's just looking for the point at which he's "ready" to start the marathon specific phase of things.

Here's how I look at it Mike.  You need to be in reasonable shape going into the cycle, but you probably don't want to have an extended period of time with structured workouts every week because you might get bored/stale.  I'd simply try to get in a few 50 mile weeks and then start a 16 week marathon specific program of your choosing where, as Chris says, 70-80 mile peak weeks would be ideal.  You're not going to need nearly as much mileage to go sub 3:00 as us fogies would, but don't skimp too much.  I know a guy with not much running background who ran a 3:07 or so in Chicago a couple years ago and peaked at 45 miles.

Frankly I think this is a wrong thought. Sub 3 can be easy and hard. The key question is how to improve, then let the result come itself. The way you ask the question is like you ask what it takes to get someone in bed and you will do it only when it is worthy it. Consistently train and improve are key.

I think you all are right.  I think back to when I decided to go for it and the key was both consistency and mileage.  Prior to running my sub-3, I only averaged 45-50 miles per week with a speed session on Tuesdays and a long run over the weekend. I had used this approach to successfully run a 3:03 at Boston, so I knew it was possible.  I also did a fair share of racing back then - 10Ks or 5 milers (5ks were not popular at all, but 10Ks were) and an occasional half or 10 miler.  And I trained with a group like Dave-O does.

I took a year to build up to the attempt in that I ran Boston in the Spring of 1986, and I didn't attempt my sub-3 until MCM in the fall of 1987.  I gathered a strong base and slowly built up to the 70-80 miles per week I felt I needed over the summer.  It was a bit tough to fit it around my job as I travelled a lot, but so did my husband, so I was often "alone" after work and that is when I put in the most mileage.  Don't get me wrong in that although I didn't run a marathon in that time frame, I raced a lot.

Basically what I am saying, is that you need to get your solid base back.  You already have the ability to do it as demonstrated by your previous marathons, and you will be boosted by the cycling that you have been doing.  I would bet you could actually run a late fall/early winter race like CIM and do it, but I might wait until early Spring with you injury history and with the fact that you are just getting into your career and you don't really yet know the demand on your time.  If it was me, I'd focus on bringing the mileage up with at least two quality sessions a week and I'd race a bit for the mental aspect of the sport i.e. a half marathon or two in the fall.

Thanks all for the advice!

Chris - Jim is correct.  That was what I wanted as my base before even considering a race.  

Jim - Good point.  I was planning on maybe a month or two at that base level before a little dip around Christmastime then the training commences.  Guess I'll look into races first to see how the timing will all work out.

Jerry - You've clearly never dated me, because you'd know that I'm just as cautious with women as I am with this post

Michele - This post more or less perfectly reflected my plan.  And if you say it, it must be logical.  

Here goes nothin'...

Eh.  For someone as young as mike, I don't get this looooooong build up before doing marathon training.  Here's the bottom line from my perspective.   You have enough talent to break 3:00 now if you average 70+ miles a week for 12 weeks and then taper.  I also think you DON'T have enough running experience to break 3:00 without that kind of mileage.  Michele's example is a good one and i guarantee you her 10K times supported sub 3:00 being doable but she didn't get there until she ramped up the mileage to real marathonong mileage.   The guy Jim mentions who ran a fast marathon on minimal mileage?   Probably could do a 36 minute 10K so I'm wagering he's still badly underachieving at the marathon.  Look at people on these boards like manning and Schuey.   Both ran their best marathons when they noticeably kicked up the weekly mileage.  Neither did what I would describe as complicated training with lots of workouts. But manning was doing marathons every few weeks (and going under 3:10) and then had a bunch of 100 mile type weeks and went under 3:00 at Chicago.  He's right that "Run More" is truly the secret to success in the marathon. Schuey was routinely doing the same kind of mileage before crushing huge race results at back to back Bostons.  But his times aren't a suprise when you look at the mileage he logs.  Believe me, i want the answer to be different.  I've run three half marathons between 1:22 and 1:25 so you would think sub 3:00 is doable for me but I've fallen we'll short and consistent mileage is the problem.  So.....4 months out from the day you want to break 3 start running an hour every day and 2-3 hours once a weekend.   No focus on pace.  You'll get faster during that time but dont try to or force the pace.  Repeat for 4 months.  Break 3.  I'll give you a money back guarantee on the race entry if you do that plan.

Hm.

Since I'm pretty adamant about taking a day off per week, let's assume I split that hour into 2x 1.5hr during the week, and I've got a total of ~9hr/week.  I'd have to be averaging something like 7:30s to get 70mpw from that time frame...  Which I don't think I'll be able to do.

I've drawn out a plan similar to what I ran for OC.  It's got more mileage early on, so there's a longer period at high mileage, but the average for the last 14 weeks is only 58mpw.  I'm trying to figure out a way to bump my mileage up earlier than then...  I have 10 weeks to get to the start of a 20-week plan for the race I'm looking at.  Just don't want to be an idiot and try to build up too fast.

Available time is usually the main constraint.  Most people have other things that they like to do that compete with training.  If possible, I would suggest averaging 90mins for 4 days during week with 1 rest day, then at least 4 hours running on the weekend.

For weekday runs, an average pace of 9min is 40 miles (8min is 45).  9min pace for 4hrs on the weekend is 27 miles (8min is 30).  It's pretty easy to get to 70mpw this way on 6 days running.  I wouldn't even care about running a lot of doubles.  I used regularly run doubles of 5/6... 6/7... etc... Do an hour in the morning and another 30mins in the evening (or vice versa).  Do 2hrs on a day when you have more time and then drop back to an hour when you're under a time crunch.

Do this consistently for 10+ weeks and the legs start to feel like pistons.  That is a great feeling.  You may even find that you'd prefer to do 'an easy 5 miles' instead taking a day off...

Here's what my training partner doe's... Training for Indianapolis. He's 39, has gone 2:39+ his last two marathons. He averages between 60-70 mpw. Two workouts each week; He always nails his long run...currently up to 17 miles, progression runs starting around 7:30 pace, finishes under 6:00 pace. And a midweek tempo or track workout. The rest is filled with easy running... 7:30-8:15 pace. And he doesn't miss many days when in training.

One long run, one faster day, the rest easy running.

Hi Mike, some good advice from everybody here. I have run 5 sub 3 marathons in the last year. For me mileage was around 70-85 mpw (sometimes in the low 90's, but no more), with a solid 16 week's of training including a 2 week taper. I see that you do your runs based on time. I would focus on building a base of 50-65 mpw and when this feels comfortable start a solid structured training plan at least 12 preferably 16 weeks pre race. I feel the critical element for you is the execution of your workouts because that is where you will get the necessary adaptation to race day effort. Your ability to burn less fuel at goal race pace will only come through the adaptation of running quicker and right at those types of effort levels. That's what works for me anyhow, good luck in your quest, it is truly magical to cross that finish line and see a 2:xx:xx on the clock !!

RobA wrote:Hi Mike, some good advice from everybody here. I have run 5 sub 3 marathons in the last year. For me mileage was around 70-85 mpw (sometimes in the low 90's, but no more), with a solid 16 week's of training including a 2 week taper. I see that you do your runs based on time. I would focus on building a base of 50-65 mpw and when this feels comfortable start a solid structured training plan at least 12 preferably 16 weeks pre race. I feel the critical element for you is the execution of your workouts because that is where you will get the necessary adaptation to race day effort.  Your ability to burn less fuel at goal race pace will only come through the adaptation of running quicker and right at those types of effort levels. That's what works for me anyhow, good luck in your quest, it is truly magical to cross that finish line and see a 2:xx:xx on the clock !!

I found that simply running more produced the training response necessary to log a sub3.  In that build up, I never ran a single mile at, or faster than, planned marathon pace.  I ran a few 10-12 mile runs at 7:10-7:20.  I ran a lot of miles at 9:00-9:30.  My weekly mileage peak was 137 miles.  I was 44 years old.  On a warm race day in Chicago, I ran near perfect 5k splits finishing with a 29 sec positive split.  My chip time was 2:59:35, but my clock time was 2:59:59... and that's the time I have framed...  

Of course, I'd run 17 marathons the year prior, including 6 marathons in 9 days in 6 different states...  I really should run another sub3 before I turn 50...

Congrats on 5 sub3s in year!  That's freaking awesome!

 For the record, I did sub 3 once.

Jerry wrote: For the record, I did sub 3 once.

Tell us about it, Jerry.  It was so long ago I've forgotten... 

RobA wrote:Hi Mike, some good advice from everybody here. I have run 5 sub 3 marathons in the last year. For me mileage was around 70-85 mpw (sometimes in the low 90's, but no more), with a solid 16 week's of training including a 2 week taper. I see that you do your runs based on time. I would focus on building a base of 50-65 mpw and when this feels comfortable start a solid structured training plan at least 12 preferably 16 weeks pre race. I feel the critical element for you is the execution of your workouts because that is where you will get the necessary adaptation to race day effort.  Your ability to burn less fuel at goal race pace will only come through the adaptation of running quicker and right at those types of effort levels. That's what works for me anyhow, good luck in your quest, it is truly magical to cross that finish line and see a 2:xx:xx on the clock !!

Thanks to everyone again for your responses.  The trend seems to be minimal workouts, lots of miles.

Rob, what did a 70-90 mile week look like for you?  All singles?  7 days?

Good question, this is a step back week for me to consolidate the 4 heavy mileage weeks previous. This is what this week looked like for me.
Mon AM 4m easy PM 8m easy with 6x 20 sec strides
Tue PM 8m Progression run starting at a 7:45 pace and picking it up roughly 15 secs per mile to finish on a 6:00 mile
Wed PM 10m recovery at easy day effort
Thu PM 7m easy with 6x 20 sec strides
Fri PM warm up 2.5 miles light stretching and a few strides. Then 6:00 min @ 6:00 (3:30 rest) 5:00 min @ 5:50 (3:15 rest) 4:00 min @ 5:40 (3:00 rest) 3:00 min @ 5:30 (2:45 rest) 2:00 min @ 5:20 (2:30 rest) 1:00 min @ 5:10 cool down 1.5 miles easy (about 8m total) - BRUTAL WORKOUT, but rewarding once finished !!!
Sat (Today) planned 8m easy
Sun planned 18m moderate
Total 71 for the week, I know you like to have a day off, if you are prepared to do doubles, this type of mileage is easily achievable with some dedication.
So now you have lots of answers, now you need a plan that suits your lifestyle. There are lots of people with way more experience than my lowly 3.5 yr running efforts on this board who could help you here.

Thanks for the congrats Mr MattM !! Jerry, put some work in and lets have another sub 3 !! Have a great weekend everybody