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Fracking the system

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Julie
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:24 pm

Nick Morris wrote:I agree with Mark, now is as good a time as any to start increasing the mileage to gain more endurance.

That was my bias as well, as it fits within the +10% mileage/week postulate very nicely.  Thanks, y'all.
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Post  ounce Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:38 pm

Well, Tuesday’s 8 mile run was much like last Friday’s run as the follow up to the prior day’s 8 mile run in the way that is first to be reviewed.  Cadence.  Cadence, because the lower the cadence, the slower the pace.  And the day after an 8 mile run is showing to be just that.  Slower.  I’m sure it’s just that my legs haven’t toughened up enough yet to be closer to the better run.  Or it could be just that I need to run every other day.  Being 78 degrees with a dewpoint of 76 doesn’t help, either.

8 miles, 1:51:45, 13:58 pace, 133 avg HR, 146 max HR, 159 average spm
1.       12:50, 137 bpm, 173 spm
2.       12:57, 139 bpm, 168 spm
3.       13:53, 135 bpm, 157 spm
4.       14:17, 136 bpm, 154 spm
5.       14:38, 134 bpm, 155 spm
6.       14:59, 126 bpm, 152 spm
7.       14:25, 129 bpm, 155 spm
8.       13:45, 134 bpm, 157 spm 

From the first 50 yards, I knew it wasn’t going to be pretty.  I forgot how many 14’s I had.  Well, I’ll tee up again for Thursday and Friday to see what happens.  And I’ll do it again this way, next week.  If I don’t see an uptick of betterment, I might just up the mileage a hair and run M-W-F.  Next week is not the time for upping the mileage as a I need to see some improvement. 

Today was a rest day.  Thanks for coming by.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:16 pm

We all need recovery runs once in a while, Doug.  It wasn't as bad this morning here in Cleveland but it was 72F with 92% humidity and an 80% dew point this morning.  All I can say is that I had a fartlek workout to do and I'm glad that the "slow" minutes are to be "slow".
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Post  ounce Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:51 am

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:We all need recovery runs once in a while, Doug.  It wasn't as bad this morning here in Cleveland but it was 72F with 92% humidity and an 80% dew point this morning.  All I can say is that I had a fartlek workout to do and I'm glad that the "slow" minutes are to be "slow".

Yeah, I guess so, Michele.  Thanks.

***

Continuing week 2 of the 4-8’s with rest on Wednesday, today is 8 miles after the rest day.  If history repeats itself, then I should do somewhere in the neighborhood of a 13:20 pace, 146 avg bpm, and 170 spm.  Today’s run should be better than Tuesday’s or tomorrow’s run, but not as good as Monday’s run due to having Saturday and Sunday to rest.  I want to be able to increase the number of mile splits at 170 spm or greater from last Thursday’s 5 @ 170 or greater. 

It was 77 degrees with a dewpoint of 74, this morning. 

8 miles, 1:48:16, 13:32 pace, 144 avg bpm (72%), 156 max bpm during mile 6, 170 spm cadence, 0.7m stride length
1.     13:04, 142 bpm, 173 spm
2.     13:10, 145 bpm, 171 spm
3.     13:22, 145 bpm, 170 spm
4.     14:00, 146 bpm, 171 spm
5.     13:52, 144 bpm, 170 spm
6.     13:44, 143 bpm, 169 spm
7.     13:36, 144 bpm, 165 spm
8.     13:26, 148 bpm, 168 spm 

So, I was pretty durn consistent with this run, compared to last Thursday.  It’s almost eerie.  As much as I would have liked to show some improvement, a tie is fine because I’m not sliding, even with the rest day.  My blood ketone level is just fine.  It was 1.4, this morning.  Therapeutic is 0.5-3.0. 

I was trying to think of another way to maintain the cadence and was thinking of one of the early (maybe the first) Tweety bird cartoon, where his little feet were just scurrying along quickly, but the forward movement was not matching the movement of the feet.  So for the 2nd half of the run, I was trying to be Tweety.  Thanks for coming by.
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Post  ounce Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:34 pm

Today marks the end of week two of the 4-8’s.  I was expecting today’s run to be slower than yesterday, but I was hoping to have a few more splits in the 170 or greater cadence.  I was right on both counts.  It’s just disappointing that it was slower beyond my expectations.  I guess I need to lower the bar more for Fridays.  Fridays should be a sort of blow your wad early, then hold on for the rest of the slow, slow journey.  I felt better than last Friday, at the start and through about mile 2, which shows in the cadence. 

It makes me want to re-think the process, the objective, and the plan.  When I get discouraged in my running, I want to re-invent.  And I think that with as much time as I have until September, I still have time to let the 4-8’s execute another two weeks.  So by Friday the 13th + 14 days, I should know how I am adapting.  Options for June 30 include staying the course, lower the cadence from 174 to maybe 168, or junking ChiRunning altogether.  I’m going to do some research on whether a 180-190 pounder should be doing a fast cadence or if it’s better for lighter, elite runners (Michele included) and I should expect the 160’s to be an upper range.  There’s a lot written on the subject. 

It was 79 degrees with a dewpoint of 76 degrees.  Temps usually reserved for August.  No wind.  I was hoping a thunderstorm was going to roll through, as I ran, but it split around me.  Outflow boundaries produce a good amount of wind and coolness.  Alas, none today. 

8 miles, 1:53:22, 14:10 pace, 137 avg bpm, 151 max bpm during mile 3, 160 avg spm
1.     13:00, 139 bpm, 173 spm
2.     13:11, 144 bpm, 170 spm
3.     13:03, 144 bpm, 168 spm
4.     13:42, 143 bpm, 168 spm
5.     14:18, 138 bpm, 163 spm
6.     15:14, 132 bpm, 150 spm
7.     15:18, 129 bpm, 148 spm
8.     15:16, 128 bpm, 146 spm 

I did have 2 splits of 170 spm or greater, this Friday compared to 1 for last Friday.  And my overall time was 89 seconds slower than last Friday, which is pretty insignificant. 

2 days to rest and I’ll hit it again on Monday.  Thanks for your insights.  Make it a good weekend.
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Post  ounce Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:59 pm

After reading some blogs on Sweat Science and one on ChiRunning, I came to realize two things:
1.  The lighter you are, the better able you can maintaint a higher cadence.
2.  None of the Sweat Science people were doing Chi.

That doesn't mean that I can't do a 180 ever.  But Danny Dreyer, the author of ChiRunning, said in a blog that it took him a whole year of training to be able to run a whole marathon at 180 spm.

I had to write that down.
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:03 am

Week 3 of the 4 – 8 mile runs at a target cadence of 174.  I run on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is a rest day, then Thursday and Friday.  The past two weeks have shown that Monday is the fastest and closest to the target because of resting Saturday and Sunday, Thursday is the 2nd best because of the Wednesday rest day, then Tuesday and lastly, Friday.

Today it was 78 degrees with a dewpoint of 75 and a brief breeze at the start of the run. 

8 miles, 1:42:03, 12:45 pace, 144 avg bpm, 160 max bpm during mile 8, 170 spm, 12:53 1st half pace, 12:37 2nd half pace, 0.74 meter average stride length or just over 29 inches.
1.     13:17, 134 bpm, 172 spm, 0.70 sl
2.     12:39, 141 bpm, 171 spm, 0.74 sl
3.     12:37, 142 bpm, 170 spm, 0.75 sl
4.     13:01, 145 bpm, 171 spm, 0.72 sl
5.     12:38, 146 bpm, 171 spm, 0.75 sl
6.     12:35, 148 bpm, 170 spm, 0.75 sl
7.     12:59, 147 bpm, 165 spm, 0.75 sl
8.     12:15, 152 bpm, 170 spm, 0.77 sl 

Today’s run was a minor breakthrough.  At the March 29 clinic, I was taught how to get a little extra stride length by rotating the hips.  This rotating of the hips allows the foot to go rearward a little bit more, thereby extending the length of the stride.  When I have advanced through the steps from 160 to 170 steps per minute, my leading indicator on when to increase 1 step has been that when I become comfortable with the new cadence, my hips will naturally start to rotate. 

This happened today during mile 2 and I was very pleased.  It’s an objective sign of progress.  Compared to last Monday, today my pace was 4 seconds faster, 1 bpm lower, 2 steps lower (that’s odd), and 2 degrees warmer.  With the hip rotation, I leaned into the run more to take advantage of it and it showed in the faster splits during the 2nd half.  I wanted to see if I could negative split with hip rotation.  I did. 

I have no doubt that tomorrow’s run will be slower than today.  But it will be interesting to see how the hip rotation will play into the run, tomorrow.

There was one thing that I noticed about this style of running.  Since I am leaning forward at the ankles to gain speed (because the feet rarely extend very far past the body), if my shoe catches a root or a higher edge of the pavement, I am pretty much going to splat because there’s not enough time to put my feet under my already leaning body.
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:44 am

Thanks for the complement above.  Don't stress too much over the cadence thing.  I ran Boston averaging around 176 which seems to be my natural stride (I did have a max of 190) and I doubt I could get that up any higher.

I won't be coming to Houston this year as I really can't handle the multiple thing that close together anymore and f course, Boston is still in the cards for the next two years.  My daughter; however, has talked about the possibility of moving to the Houston area after graduation (I know 2016) as there is still a high demand for teachers there.  She is a math and math education major and hopes to teach at the high school level.  Might have to save Texas for 2017.

Keep up the good work.
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Post  Schuey Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:56 pm

Nice little run their Ounce! It's pretty cool learning to run huh? I only say that because when I was in high school I just thought running was running. When I started running track and started to learn little things like you did about the hips you realize that it's not just running but it's also an art. The better you can learn how to use your body in a more proficient way not only the faster you can go but the easier the effort and the less stress you put on the body!

Keep on Fracking the system dude!
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:47 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Thanks for the complement above.  Don't stress too much over the cadence thing.  I ran Boston averaging around 176 which seems to be my natural stride (I did have a max of 190) and I doubt I could get that up any higher.

I won't be coming to Houston this year as I really can't handle the multiple thing that close together anymore and f course, Boston is still in the cards for the next two years.  My daughter; however, has talked about the possibility of moving to the Houston area after graduation (I know 2016) as there is still a high demand for teachers there.  She is a math and math education major and hopes to teach at the high school level.  Might have to save Texas for 2017.

Keep up the good work.
Running 30 miles a week with no race planned is a departure for me.  I sometimes think that 174 is too high, but I know the body is adaptable.  If nothing else, I'll have a good base come Labor Day.

Well, maybe save Texas for the last state.  Yes, still a high demand for teachers and that shouldn't change for a while.  There's a lot of rice land that's still waiting for subdivisions to be built.  If she can handle heat, humidity, and hurricanes, then she should be fine.  And living in Atlanta will be similar, except for the hurricanes.  Holler if you need some help. 
Schuey wrote:Nice little run their Ounce! It's pretty cool learning to run huh? I only say that because when I was in high school I just thought running was running. When I started running track and started to learn little things like you did about the hips you realize that it's not just running but it's also an art. The better you can learn how to use your body in a more proficient way not only the faster you can go but the easier the effort and the less stress you put on the body!

Keep on Fracking the system dude!
Very true, Schuey.  Hal did his part to getting me on a track that built a good knowledge base, but when one started to ask a question starting with, "What if....", he kept on spitting out the party line or 'why?'  We're all a bunch of n=1 students.

I've found that by doing this style of running that my hip sockets don't ache anymore, but a strong core really helps big time.  If this style works for the next Houston, I already have a plan for 2016 Houston that should dovetail nicely with what I am doing this cycle.

If I ever get to the point of needing a coach, I hope the person will take what I'm doing and compliment it, rather than trying to fit this round peg into the coach's square hole.

1L and Schuey, thanks for dropping by!
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Post  Mark B Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:39 pm

It's got to be difficult maintaining any kind of training regimen in those conditions, so don't get discouraged if things progress slowly. Learning better form is unlearning everything your body thought was fine. That's never easy.

Still, try to be patient. Even the smallest trickle of water will, over time, wear down the hardest rock. Let it happen, grasshopper. Smile
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Post  ounce Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:15 pm

Mark B wrote:It's got to be difficult maintaining any kind of training regimen in those conditions, so don't get discouraged if things progress slowly. Learning better form is unlearning everything your body thought was fine. That's never easy.

Still, try to be patient. Even the smallest trickle of water will, over time, wear down the hardest rock. Let it happen, grasshopper.  Smile
I shall, sensei.   study
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Post  Dave P Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:40 pm

I tried looking at cadence & wasn't convinced that I could really do anything about it. My cadence sensor slipped off my shoe & that was the end of that.
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Post  ounce Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:54 am

Dave P wrote:I tried looking at cadence & wasn't convinced that I could really do anything about it. My cadence sensor slipped off my shoe & that was the end of that.

Howdy Dave.  Thanks for stopping by and contributing!  The Forerunner 220 and 620 have a built in cadence in the watch.  Not sure how many other models have it, but no need for a sensor anymore.

***

In weeks 1 and 2 of the Tuesday run, it's always been a chore or a challenge to complete 8 miles with more than 1 split at a cadence greater than or equal to 170 steps per minute, let alone stringing 7 or 8 together because Monday's run used so much effort to get 7 or 8 splits >170.

Today, not so much.  Something clicked, today.  I don't know if it was my eating ~80 grams of protein yesterday (a higher number than usual) or all the prior 8 or so weeks of running producing enough mitochondria and capillaries to make some muscle fibers, but today was a good day.  Today would have even been a good day for a Thursday (Wednesday rest day).  It's the breakthrough moment for which I have been looking. 

Like yesterday, it was 78 degrees, but with 1 more degree of dewpoint with a reading of 76 degrees.  No wind.

8 miles, 1:43:43, 12:58 pace, 144 avg HR, 156 max HR during miles 3, 6, & 8, 171 avg spm, 0.73 avg stride length, 1st half pace 12:47 and 2nd half pace of 13:09.

  1. 12:59, 137 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  2. 12:44, 140 bpm, 171 spm, 74 sl
  3. 12:37, 146 bpm, 172 spm, 74 sl
  4. 12:47, 148 bpm, 173 spm, 73 sl
  5. 12:59, 144 bpm, 171 spm, 72 sl
  6. 13:33, 144 bpm, 167 spm, 71 sl
  7. 13:26, 144 bpm, 167 spm, 72 sl
  8. 12:38, 151 bpm, 171 spm, 74 sl


I wanted 3 splits >170 and I ran 6, including the last mile.  At the risk of full disclosure, at the end of mile 7, my average pace was 13:02 and I wanted to get it back down to 13 flat during the last mile.  So I fartleked a lot of the last mile and saw 12:59, then I didn't want to lose that, so I sped up a little more and ended up with the 12:58.

This run wasn't quite as difficult as prior Tuesdays, nor Fridays for that matter.  Things just came together and with a little positive feedback from the body, that beget the motivation to keep up with the cadence.  I knew at halfway that this was going to be a good run, even if the bottom fell out on the way back.  But on the way back, the bottom dragged a little.  Day after Mondays or Thursday runs had been bottom draggers, but not today.

I'm pleased.  Very pleased.  This might be the turning point.  And no pain nor niggles.

Tuesday, June 17 - 12:58 pace, 144 bpm, 171 spm
Tuesday, June 10 - 13:58 pace, 133 bpm, 159 spm
Tuesday, June 3 - 13:25 pace, 137 bpm, 166 spm
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:59 am

You're doing great, Doug, I like the progress.  Make sure to keep 2017 on the calendar - I'll be in Houston if we can keep running for another two years as that is the earliest my daughter would be there (fall, 2016).  

It is going to be close to 90F (only 49%) humdiity when the group runs later today.  Should be a reminder of what it was like to run in Hotlanta in the summer.
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Post  ounce Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:17 pm

Thanks, Michele.  I finally moved a couple of steps forward on this scheme.

I plan on running Houston through 2018, when I get my 10th, so I'm on board for 2017.  I would imagine the whole State needs teachers, not just Houston. 

You enjoy that run and I'm sure those memories will be flooding back, like sweat making squishy shoes. Very Happy
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Post  Nick Morris Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:28 pm

Glad to see that things are coming together. I bet it felt good to see those results...
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Post  ounce Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:53 pm

Nick Morris wrote:Glad to see that things are coming together.  I bet it felt good to see those results...

Very MUCH so, Nick.  The only thing that didn't happen today, that happened yesterday, was the hip rotation.  It would seem that I need to have a longer recovery period than overnight. 

Wednesday is a rest day, so maybe I'll get a hip rotation on Thursday.  Or maybe not.  Thanks for stopping by.
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Post  Julie Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Your details and numbers are really amazing. I can't imagine tracking cadence but that's awesome. I also can't imagine running through a TX summer, not that ours are cool (103 heat index today) but I imagine that makes you tough for when it cools off in the winter (I was going to say fall then I realized it's probably still warm in the fall).  Very Happy
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Post  Michele "1L" Keane Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:39 pm

So we had a guy from Good Form Running (http://www.goodformrunning.com/) come to our workout tonight and he talked about the four basic points - posture, midfoot, cadence and lean.  He had us do some drills with a metronome set at 150, 210 and then 180 and then go out an run.  My natural cadence seems to be around 174-176 and I asked him about it and his basic answer was that 180 isn't magic and he looked at my cadence and said it was good.  He wanted me to work on maintaining that cadence at a slower and faster pace all while maintaining the correct posture as I fatigue. Anyway it was interesting.

That being said, 180 might not be your magic number either - you might actually be perfect at 172 or 178 - so don't stress too much.  Work on the other three things too.
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Post  ounce Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:11 pm

Julie wrote:Your details and numbers are really amazing. I can't imagine tracking cadence but that's awesome. I also can't imagine running through a TX summer, not that ours are cool (103 heat index today) but I imagine that makes you tough for when it cools off in the winter (I was going to say fall then I realized it's probably still warm in the fall).  Very Happy
Howdy, Julie.  Thanks for coming by.  The Garmin Forerunner 220 and 620 tracks cadence by arm swing, so that helps IMMENSELY in reviewing the numbers, just like what the heart rate monitor does.  But the metronome is the key to keeping the cadence.

I start running about 3:30 in the morning, so I don't deal with the sun.  I ran Chicago in 2008, the year after the really hot 2007 race.  My race was still with a high temp of 87, but I faltered because I hadn't trained in the sun.  I thought the race was going to be fine, but the sun really beat the crap out of me.

It is still warm until about November when we consistently have cooler weather.  The first break in the heat usually comes in the 3rd week of September and this cool front is the beginning of the end for hurricane season in Houston and Texas because high pressure builds in and blocks hurricanes from coming our way and it heads to Gulfport and Biloxi.
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:So we had a guy from Good Form Running (http://www.goodformrunning.com/) come to our workout tonight and he talked about the four basic points - posture, midfoot, cadence and lean.  He had us do some drills with a metronome set at 150, 210 and then 180 and then go out an run.  My natural cadence seems to be around 174-176 and I asked him about it and his basic answer was that 180 isn't magic and he looked at my cadence and said it was good.  He wanted me to work on maintaining that cadence at a slower and faster pace all while maintaining the correct posture as I fatigue. Anyway it was interesting.

That being said, 180 might not be your magic number either - you might actually be perfect at 172 or 178 - so don't stress too much.  Work on the other three things too.
Yes, Michele, Good Form Running is similar to ChiRunning.  I looked at the website and it's very similar.  I think that I'm going to stay at 174 for this training cycle.  I blitzed through the 160's, but got bogged down at 170. 

And his suggestion of maintaining the cadence when either slower or faster is another tenet of ChiRunning.  In that your legs and feet are consistently doing the same cadence, but the forward lean at the ankles is what makes you run faster because you're just trying to put your foot under your body so you don't fall down.  It is a learning process to lean at the ankles, instead of the waist.

Your foot strikes midfoot as a 3 point landing, 2 points are the ball of the foot and the 3rd point is the forward most part of the heel bone.  Your legs are moving in a circle, not back and forth like a pendulum.  It takes practice just to stand correctly, but I have no hip socket discomfort.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chi+running

Danny Dreyer, who founded ChiRunning, said in a blog that it took him 1 year to be able to run a 180 cadence for a whole marathon.
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Post  ounce Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:11 am

Rest day.
 Sweaty

I wanted to write down before it escapes my noggin that the LC/HF plan is going much easier this year than last year.  It seems I can eat more protein and carbs without greatly affecting the blood ketone level.  Last year, it was a very fickle number.  It could be that with my legs acquiring more muscle fibers that the supply is close to matching the demand. 
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Post  ounce Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:13 am

Yes!!  details to follow.

 Ride
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Post  ounce Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:49 am

Yesterday was a rest day and today was the 3rd 8 mile run in the 3rd week of a 4 week experiment to adapt to a 174 cadence.  Last week's times were less than encouraging and I was thinking of going back to a M-W-F schedule, but ended up deciding to go the full 4 weeks and decide what to do after that.

It was 77 degrees, this morning, with a dewpoint of 74.

8 miles, 1:42:36, 12:49 pace, 146 avg bpm, 158 max bpm during mile 3, 172 spm, 0.73 m avg stride length, 1st half pace 12:56, 2nd half pace, 12:42.

  1. 12:56, 139 bpm, 173 spm, 72 sl
  2. 12:55, 144 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  3. 12:51, 144 bpm, 172 spm, 73 sl
  4. 13:04, 147 bpm, 172 spm, 72 sl
  5. 12:59, 145 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  6. 12:55, 148 bpm, 171 spm, 73 sl
  7. 12:29, 151 bpm, 170 spm, 76 sl
  8. 12:25, 151 bpm, 171 spm, 76 sl


This was great!  ALL 8 splits were 170 or greater.  A first for a Thursday and only 33 seconds slower than Monday's run.  This is officially a breakthrough on establishing the 174 cadence.  The only thing that would have made it better would have been some hip rotation, but that's okay.  That will come.

There were a couple of points in the run where I was getting off cadence, but I corrected and motored on.  The cadence isn't easy or rote, yet, but it's definitely getting there.

And the times for the last 3 Thursdays are:
June 19 - 1:42:36, 12:49 pace, 146 bpm, 172 spm, 8 splits 170 or greater
June 12 - 1:48:16, 13:32 pace, 144 bpm, 170 spm, 5 splits 170 or greater
June  5  - 1:47:38, 13:20 pace, 146 bpm, 170 spm, 5 splits 170 or greater

Tomorrow's run is, you guessed it, 8 miles and usually the slowest run of the week.  Thanks for stopping by.
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Post  ounce Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:36 pm

Strictly as a comparison, I found this post from June 27, 2013 in the 35, 5, & 2 blog.  It has a similar temperature as today's.  At this writing a year ago, I was a month into LC/HF and this was a test to see how my energy level was.  I mentioned it was a 'comfortable' run.


Once again, the ambient temperature was 77 degrees with a dewpoint of 74 and a rare wind.

8.12 miles, 1:51:45, 13:46 pace, avg HR 139, max HR 158 during mile 8, 1st half pace 13:50, 2nd half pace 13:42.


  1. 13:53, 123 bpm
  2. 13:48, 131 bpm
  3. 13:55, 134 bpm
  4. 13:48, 142 bpm
  5. 13:43, 141 bpm
  6. 13:52, 144 bpm
  7. 13:43, 146 bpm
  8. 13:21, 151 bpm
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