365Runners
Welcome to 365Runners! We are here because we all share a running addiction. Whether training for a first marathon, a new PR, a new race distance, or anything else... welcome!

To stop the banner ads, please register and login. Otherwise, please enjoy browsing as a guest.

Fracking the system

Page 14 of 15 Previous  1 ... 8 ... 13, 14, 15  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Jim Lentz on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:15 pm

I wouldn't overdo it it with the testing.
avatar
Jim Lentz
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1171
Points : 4261
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Downers Grove

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  nkrichards on Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:37 am

I'd be encouraged by the fact that you were able to complete the full test this time.  Lots of factors that could influence the times other than just a loss of endurance.  I don't think I'd schedule another test to soon.

I can't imagine running in the heat/humidity that you deal with.  It's been humid here but nothing in comparison to what you're faced with.  Central Oregon is always dry.  I'm not sure what's going on but I don't like it.
avatar
nkrichards
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1847
Points : 6444
Join date : 2011-07-27
Age : 59
Location : Sunny Central Oregon

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Dave P on Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:38 pm

I've never been able to consciously change my cadence.
avatar
Dave P
Poster
Poster

Posts : 445
Points : 3063
Join date : 2011-06-16
Age : 53
Location : Connecticut

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:05 pm

@Jim Lentz wrote:I wouldn't overdo it it with the testing.
Yup, I can do it again in 6 weeks.  Much obliged.
@nkrichards wrote:I'd be encouraged by the fact that you were able to complete the full test this time.  Lots of factors that could influence the times other than just a loss of endurance.  I don't think I'd schedule another test to soon.

I can't imagine running in the heat/humidity that you deal with.  It's been humid here but nothing in comparison to what you're faced with.  Central Oregon is always dry.  I'm not sure what's going on but I don't like it.
Yes, Nancy, finishing the whole thing was satisfying and maybe next time, I can do the last one closer to 180.  I don't want to run on a treadmill, so running outside is the only choice.
@Dave P wrote:I've never been able to consciously change my cadence.
I use a metronome.

Thanks for the comments, y'all. Smile
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:07 pm

On Friday, my legs were too wore out to any long distance.  I was disappointed, but understood.

I did run 4 miles before stopping and walking back the 4 miles.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Chris M on Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:16 pm

Wow, I went back a few pages and found the info on cadence confusing.   For me....and this maybe echoes something Mark referenced about Hal's observation....my cadence DECREASES when I'm tired and really dead at the end of a marathon.  A lower cadence for me is a sure sign I'm cooked and over-striding to make up for being out of gas.   But what surprises me is that you and others are having problems sustaining a cadence in the 170-180 range.   Forget running for a second and just think of walking....walking with short mincing steps in that 170-180 cadence range is something I'd recommend you try outside of the context of running.  Just getting used to your striding foot never really getting all that far in front of you and staying "over" your feet the entire time.  For me and again we are all just an Experiment of One (trademarked expression?) moving over to a much higher cadence than the 150 or so I started as a runner was the breakthrough for me to actually be able to sustain paces over distance.  I had to learn and re-learn many times to be taking little mini-steps and never reaching too far out with my stride.  I couldn't NOT run 180 now but it took me a lot of time focused on a mantra of "shorter strides - shorter strides" to get there and find that it made me so much more efficient and tired me less.   Can you just go on a 20 minute walk doing whatever it takes to have a cadence of 180 and see what that feels like?   Repeat that a few times a week getting used to that metronome tap-tap-tap-tap that 180 cadence is?
avatar
Chris M
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1061
Points : 3629
Join date : 2011-06-14
Age : 48
Location : Washington, DC

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:31 am

@Chris M wrote:Wow, I went back a few pages and found the info on cadence confusing.   For me....and this maybe echoes something Mark referenced about Hal's observation....my cadence DECREASES when I'm tired and really dead at the end of a marathon.  A lower cadence for me is a sure sign I'm cooked and over-striding to make up for being out of gas.   But what surprises me is that you and others are having problems sustaining a cadence in the 170-180 range.   Forget running for a second and just think of walking....walking with short mincing steps in that 170-180 cadence range is something I'd recommend you try outside of the context of running.  Just getting used to your striding foot never really getting all that far in front of you and staying "over" your feet the entire time.  For me and again we are all just an Experiment of One (trademarked expression?) moving over to a much higher cadence than the 150 or so I started as a runner was the breakthrough for me to actually be able to sustain paces over distance.  I had to learn and re-learn many times to be taking little mini-steps and never reaching too far out with my stride.  I couldn't NOT run 180 now but it took me a lot of time focused on a mantra of "shorter strides - shorter strides" to get there and find that it made me so much more efficient and tired me less.   Can you just go on a 20 minute walk doing whatever it takes to have a cadence of 180 and see what that feels like?   Repeat that a few times a week getting used to that metronome tap-tap-tap-tap that 180 cadence is?

Howdy, Chris!  Thanks for coming by with the questions.  The issue I have with 174 cadence, not to mention the 180 cadence, is that I didn't feel like I could run conversationally with 174 by mid-September.  So, I had to reduce the cadence to something where I thought I could be conversational.  And I think 164-166 is closer to my ability, today.

I'm not giving up on 174-180, but it's not in the cards for this training cycle.  Clearly, comparing the 174 test from July 3 against the 164 test of August 14 verifies the idea that a faster cadence produces a faster runner.  But like Nancy mentioned a few posts ago, I increased my endurance enough in 6 weeks to where I could complete the whole test, even if I couldn't do it at the prescribed 90% of HRMax on the last set.  In July 3, I was very tired and bailed after a quarter mile at 85.5%

In March, 2015, I'll work on a faster cadence with 174 as the target for the next cycle.  Thanks for the interest.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Back to the weekly running gig, this morning.  It was 79 degrees with a 75 degree dewpoint and an occasional wind.  I wasn't 100% for this run, as yesterday required a lot of lifting or shifting with weight.

And the durn 220 screwed up on distance again.  I'm just a slow running signal to the satellite in synchronous orbit.  You'd think it could do its job.  Plus, I forgot to wear the gnome.  I'm just a slow running signal.  You'd think that I could do my job and remember to bring the  metronome.  At any event, it was interesting to find out how close to 164 I could do.

I'm adjusting the distance and pace for what I know to be 10 miles, instead of the 9.68 miles that it recorded.   Evil or Very Mad 

10 miles, 2:09:46, 12:59 pace, 143 avg bpm, 154 max bpm during mile x, 161 avg cadence, 0.74 m stride length.

  1. 13:03, 132 bpm, 163 spm, 75 sl
  2. 12:26, 138 bpm, 162 spm, 80 sl
  3. 13:00, 142 bpm, 163 spm, 80 sl
  4. 13:10, 144 bpm, 163 spm, 75 sl
  5. 12:55, 144 bpm, 161 spm, 78 sl
  6. 13:15, 143 bpm, 160 spm, 76 sl
  7. 14:22, 145 bpm, 161 spm, 69 sl
  8. 14:52, 146 bpm, 160 spm, 68 sl
  9. 15:15, 146 bpm, 159 spm, 66 sl
  10. 14:53, 149 bpm, 159 spm, 68 sl


I really don't see how it could measure a time from miles 6-10 and still come up with 12:59 pace.  I feel comfortable with the summary line.  Oh, well.  Such are electronics.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Jim Lentz on Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:29 pm

Not sure those mile splits could be right. Your time and distance come up to the summary pace listed, but if I try to average each mile pace for all 10 I come up with a different number. Very odd.
avatar
Jim Lentz
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1171
Points : 4261
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Downers Grove

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:40 pm

@Jim Lentz wrote:Not sure those mile splits could be right. Your time and distance come up to the summary pace listed, but if I try to average each mile pace for all 10 I come up with a different number. Very odd.
+1.  No typos.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Jim Lentz on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:04 am

@ounce wrote:
@Jim Lentz wrote:Not sure those mile splits could be right. Your time and distance come up to the summary pace listed, but if I try to average each mile pace for all 10 I come up with a different number. Very odd.
+1.  No typos.
I get it, that is because it only thinks you did 9.68 miles so the paces are all screwy.
avatar
Jim Lentz
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1171
Points : 4261
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Downers Grove

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:38 pm

Yesterday, I ran 6.6 miles which was made up of running from my apt to the water fountain at Memorial Park and back.

The two runs this week have had their moments of disappointment.  But I continue to mutter on and get through them.  Whether it's the confluence of the heat, the perception of how my cadence isn't the time shaver that I hoped it to be, and adding back 2/3rds of what I lost last year or a combination of some of all of them, I don't know.  So, I'm going to declare my endurance training for the Summer to be over.  I definitely have ran more this summer than ever before and that is going to help me a bunch in the coming months.

Now, I'm going to transition over to the marathon training cycle.  I could start it today, but I decided to get some sleep.  So, I don't know when I'm going to start it.  I know it'll be within the next couple of weeks and it'll primarily be a 3 day/week plan.  The goal will still be to knock off 30 minutes off my last Houston time of 5:24, but I'll settle for a 4:59:59.  And I'll make a new blog, too.

It was 79 degrees with a dewpoint of 76.  The cadence goal was 165.

6.6 miles, 1:28:00, 13:20 avg pace, 140 avg bpm, 153 max bpm during mile 4, 164 avg spm, 0.74 m avg stride length

  1. 13:34, 128 bpm, 164 spm, 72 sl
  2. 13:09, 137 bpm, 164 spm, 74 sl
  3. 13:17, 141 bpm, 164 spm, 74 sl
  4. 13:11, 143 bpm, 164 spm, 75 sl
  5. 13:13, 144 bpm, 164 spm, 74 sl
  6. 13:30, 144 bpm, 163 spm, 73 sl
  7. 13:32 pace, 142 bpm, 163 spm, 73 sl


I remembered my gnome, today (the metronome).  This was the day after a 10 mile run, so I don't expect much and I wasn't disappointed.  I am so glad that we only have about another month of this heat.  I don't know if it's because I'm getting older or if I'm not as rested as I should be, but this has been a tough Summer.  I would imagine the accuumulation of running all those miles this Summer is weighing on my body.  I guess it's a good thing that I didn't have a lot of free time to run even more than I did and that only my groin whined the whole Summer.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:55 pm

Maybe you are just tired and since it is so early for a January race, you should take and deserve a day or two of rest.  Remember we aren't super young anymore - 50 is only the new 30, not 25!
avatar
Michele "1L" Keane
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4721
Points : 10964
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 55
Location : Cleveland (Bay Village), OH/Atlanta, GA

View user profile http://1lranthere.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Mark B on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:56 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:50 is only the new 30, not 25!

Now she tells us.
avatar
Mark B
Needs A Life
Needs A Life

Posts : 7081
Points : 15185
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 53
Location : Vancouver, Wash.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Maybe you are just tired and since it is so early for a January race, you should take and deserve a day or two of rest.  Remember we aren't super young anymore - 50 is only the new 30, not 25!

@Mark B wrote:
Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:50 is only the new 30, not 25!

Now she tells us.
Back May or June, Jim had said to watch it and maybe take a break so you don't get burned out.  I'm not burned out, but I am needing to get into the pattern of MWF running, so my body understands that a marathon is coming up and the toil will be different and better for the body.

So my thanks to y'all.

I guess that I may be showing some rust on the sheet metal, but all of the mechanicals are working.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  nkrichards on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:12 am

I was convinced that old age had set in and PRs were a thing of the past but I decided to give a BQ marathon one last honest effort last year.  I increased my mileage slightly and upped the intensity slightly...no huge changes.  I was really frustrated as I wasn't hitting the paces I wanted but once I tapered I felt pretty good and I had an awesome race.  Your recent struggles sound very similar so I wouldn't be surprised if they were the result of just being tired.  You've put yourself in a good position to begin marathon training...don't push your body to hard.  You'll be ready come January.
avatar
nkrichards
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1847
Points : 6444
Join date : 2011-07-27
Age : 59
Location : Sunny Central Oregon

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:37 am

@nkrichards wrote:I was convinced that old age had set in and PRs were a thing of the past but I decided to give a BQ marathon one last honest effort last year.  I increased my mileage slightly and upped the intensity slightly...no huge changes.  I was really frustrated as I wasn't hitting the paces I wanted but once I tapered I felt pretty good and I had an awesome race.  Your recent struggles sound very similar so I wouldn't be surprised if they were the result of just being tired.  You've put yourself in a good position to begin marathon training...don't push your body to hard.  You'll be ready come January.

Thanks, Nancy.  I believe I have some years to go before getting in the rockin' chair.  So like you, I'll keep plugging away at it.

After the few years of running marathons (2005), I know that if I don't have a big goal, then I'm just not as focused because for a back of the packer like me, training is a tremendous time sink.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:58 pm

After resting Wednesday and Thursday, I was going to run long, this morning.  Somewhere between 12 and 14 miles.  I don't believe that I have ran a distance greater than 10 miles, since using the gnome (metronome).  I believe that I need to see what happens when I run longer at 165 cadence.

Once again, the 220 watch shorted me on distance by about two-tenths during the last couple of miles. So I ran 14 miles, not 13.83 miles.  The gnome stopped working at mile 10, probably because the sweat messed with the battery.  So my cadence for the last 4 miles was not at 165 +/- 2.  I have a spare, but the last time this happened, after its own break, the gnome restarted.  And finally, at 8.45 miles my groin muscle started hurting again.  I had been doing a little stride lengthening for miles 7 and 8 and I guess that was too much for it.  I need to get that muscle plus the adductors stronger, if I am to get a little extra distance for nothing.  It was 79 degrees with a dewpoint of 75.

14 miles, 3:07:31, 13:23 pace, 151 bpm avg hr, 169 max bpm during mile 14, 162 spm avg cadence, 0.73 m average stride length, 1st half pace 13:19, 2nd half pace 13:27.

  1. 13:34, 136 bpm, 163 spm, 73 sl
  2. 13:02, 141 bpm, 164 spm, 75 sl
  3. 12:59, 143 bpm, 164 spm, 76 sl
  4. 13:27, 150 bpm, 164 spm, 73 sl
  5. 13:28, 152 bpm, 162 spm, 74 sl
  6. 13:16, 150 bpm, 164 spm, 74 sl
  7. 13:05, 151 bpm, 164 spm, 75 sl
  8. 13:06, 153 bpm, 163 spm, 75 sl
  9. 13:51, 155 bpm, 162 spm, 71 sl
  10. 13:49, 154 bpm, 164 spm, 71 sl
  11. 13:34, 154 bpm, 161 spm, 74 sl
  12. 14:06, 155 bpm, 160 spm, 72 sl
  13. 13:35, 160 bpm, 159 spm, 75 sl
  14. 15:43 pace (that's crap), 158 bpm, 154 spm, 66 sl


Had the gnome kept working, I think I would have maintained the cadence around 164.  As you can see from the HR, I was in the 150's for most of the splits, which is 75% for me and I didn't mind.  I know as I keep running during the training this Fall, that my HR will drop.  The course was an out and back 7 miles that I have done many times over the past 10 years.  The City has been paving along the banks of Buffalo Bayou for a couple of years and finally the section I was running on was asphalt or concrete, instead of root-filled dirt.

My groin settled down in about a mile after the initial 8.45 pain, then came back around mile 13.5.  I guess I'm going to need to work on getting it stronger.  Overall, I was very pleased that I made it 14 miles, as I think this is the furthest distance ran since Houston back in January and the cadence was comfortable.  That's great news, just before heading in to a new training cycle.

Thanks for stopping by.  Y'all have a good weekend and some great walking or running or watching in Oregon!


Last edited by ounce on Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:34 am

Took the weekend to rest the legs from Friday's 14 mile run and the aggravated right groin.  The groin didn't hurt at all during the weekend, which just means that in my daily walking or activities I did not give it reason to react.  Last night, I determined a particular stretch that brings the hurt to life, which took some effort to find it, then irritate it.

During this morning's 9 mile run, my 220 messed up again on distance, but I also thought of a way to test the groin during the run.  The idea was to rotate my hips to lengthen the stride, but just for about 100 yards, then go back to regular stride.  Hopefully, that will aid in repair of the groin and familiarity with what is expected with the groin muscle.

It was 77 degrees with a dewpoint of 74 and no wind.  AND IT'S 4 MONTHS UNTIL CHRISTMAS!  I did not have my gnome and the battery might be dead, so I was going to try to sense a 165 cadence.

9 miles, 1:57:54, 13:19 pace, 145 avg bpm, 155 max bpm during mile x, 163 avg spm, 0.74 m avg stride length

  1. 13:13.7, 138 bpm, 166 spm, 73 sl
  2. 13:13.7, 141 bpm, 165 spm, 74 sl  (strange that I ran the first 2 miles in the same exact time)
  3. 13:18, 144 bpm, 164 spm, 74 sl
  4. 12:50, 149 bpm, 167 spm, 75 sl
  5. 12:58, 147 bpm, 163 spm, 76 sl
  6. 12:47, 148 bpm, 163 spm, 77 sl
  7. 13:19 est, 148 bpm, 161 spm, 84 sl
  8. 15:12, 147 bpm, 160 spm, 66 sl
  9. 16:26, 147 bpm, 160 spm, 61 sl  (ROFL.  Neither of the last 2 miles are believable against the average pace.)


It was during miles 5, 6 and 7 where I was doing 100-300 yard hip rotations to extend the stride length.  Please note how the time dropped.  I really need to get the groin fixed, so I can do pain-free stride lengthening.  And get the durn 220 fixed or replaced.  I was also pleasantly surprised that I was either doing better than or equal to the cadence desired.

I'm wondering that when the temperatures cool, if I can increase the cadence without making the heart rate spike. scratch
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:15 am

No running, today.  Stayed home and did some core work, along with slinging the kettlebells around and stretching with extra time on the groin 

I'll run 6.66 on Wednesday.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Jim Lentz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:09 am

Go for 6.67!
avatar
Jim Lentz
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1171
Points : 4261
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Downers Grove

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:57 pm

@Jim Lentz wrote:Go for 6.67!

lol, that's up to my misfit 220 watch.  Last Wednesday, it was 6.60 miles.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Jim Lentz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:48 pm

@ounce wrote:
@Jim Lentz wrote:Go for 6.67!

lol, that's up to my misfit 220 watch.  Last Wednesday, it was 6.60 miles.
Why doesn't your watch ever overstate the mileage?
avatar
Jim Lentz
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 1171
Points : 4261
Join date : 2011-06-15
Age : 56
Location : Downers Grove

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:49 pm

@Jim Lentz wrote:
@ounce wrote:
@Jim Lentz wrote:Go for 6.67!

lol, that's up to my misfit 220 watch.  Last Wednesday, it was 6.60 miles.
Why doesn't your watch ever overstate the mileage?

Only in a marathon.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  ounce on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:13 am

Good Lord, was I the only one having troubles posting yesterday?  I tried about 3 times to post yesterday's run, but it didn't work.

So, I'm tired of re-typing the same thing.  The watch screwed up on distance again.  Garmin has given me a 'fix' that looks like deleting and rebooting.

I ran a normal route of 6.67 and it measured me at 6.24.  6.67 miles, 1:23:55, 12:49 pace.
avatar
ounce
Explaining To Spouse
Explaining To Spouse

Posts : 4607
Points : 12692
Join date : 2011-06-26
Age : 60
Location : houston

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Fracking the system

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 14 of 15 Previous  1 ... 8 ... 13, 14, 15  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum