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Rebuilding the Run

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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:52 pm

Jim, you make it sound like mixing the two would be a bad thing.  I must admit that there have been some long, flat, boring runs where a distraction of any sort would be useful, but I have enough trouble staying on my feet.  Doing so with altered perception would be a recipe for disaster, although anyone with a video camera may have some fodder for Funniest Home Videos or some such.

Nick, Wednesday runs are some sort of variation on speed - hills, negative splits, pyramid - and we've been replacing those with hilly trail runs.  Meets the spirit of the day and is a really nice break from the long flatter runs.  How often, no more than once a week and will depend on how the body likes it.  So far, all lights are green, and we have more trails to explore.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Julie on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:00 pm

Ha! My friend ran over a squirrel a couple of years ago. I still tease her about it.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:27 pm

Today was on the plan for 19, but I'm making this week a stepback week so cut it to 13.  Started out to a beautiful sunrise:



that must have served as my morning dose of caffeine.  Ended up doing 13.1 (because if I'm going to do 13 . . .) in 1:50 at an average HR of 146.  Now this wasn't  what it was supposed to be, an LSD, but it was what felt right and I just went with it.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Nick Morris on Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:49 pm

That is a great sunrise.

Sometime you just need to let your body dictate the pace/type of run. Nice run!
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Mark B on Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:55 pm

I like how you're mixing things up, Tom. You build a huge aerobic base with all that nutty triathlon work earlier this year, so you've got license to bust out a little and see what your body can do. Just watch out for fast-moving rodents. I've had to do some fancy footwork to avoid stepping on one -- two, actually. They were cavorting. Woke me up, that's for sure.

Great sunrise.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:35 pm

I got up this morning expecting to really feel yesterday's run, but no issues.  I got to thinking about the 13 mile runs I had run in the past and wanted to compare them to yesterday's run.  Found there were only 4 HMs with faster times, but the more exciting info I pulled from the data concerns the HR.  HR yesterday averaged 146.  In the faster races it was 163-165.  Runs where in the past I had a HR similar to yesterday's were >1:00/mile slower.  This is encouraging!

So started out the day with 18 holes.  Followed that up by taking my sweetie to a pancake breakfast, then out for a 5 mile comfortable run (sweetie declined to join me) and a 2 mile dog walk.  Pretty close to a perfect day.

Oh, and apparently my math skills are somewhat lacking.  Ended up with 50 miles again this week.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:40 pm

ER, WHAT?  This is my running trail:  

Advisory: Police activity on creek trail behind Carr ave in UC confirmed mountain lion sighting. Keep small pets indoor.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:49 am

@Tom H wrote:ER, WHAT?  This is my running trail:  

Advisory: Police activity on creek trail behind Carr ave in UC confirmed mountain lion sighting. Keep small pets indoor.
 Yikes!  There supposedly is a mountain lion in the Metroparks here, but that might just be urban legend.  As it is he or she would have a feast on the over-abundance of deer anyway.  There are indeed many coyotes.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:23 pm

Went out and did the creek run today with no mountain lion sightings. The oddest thing about the sighting this weekend was that it was at 1 pm and the cat was walking right along the gravel trail.  There were multiple witnesses and the descriptions were consistent with a mountain lion, so no reason to doubt it.

When I looked at the description of the run today, I knew it was going to be a fun one.  11 miles with 4x1mile tempo runs with 1 minute recover between.  As usual, a run following a rest day started out feeling clunky, but somewhere in mile 3 or 4 everything smoothed out.  There was no real pace goal for the first 5.5 miles and we ended up running them descending from an 8:34 to an 8:14.  Then onto the tempo segments.  Tempo for me is calculated to be a 7:42 and so that was our target for segment 1, ending up at 7:43.  Jenn and I both felt good, so decided to push each one a little harder and ended up doing 7:40, 7:30, 7:23 for the remaining 3 segments.  Probably could have gone a little faster if we actually had seen a mountain lion.  Would have been a real test of speed though.  After all, I don't have to be faster than the mountain lion, just faster than my training partner . . .
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  nkrichards on Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:54 pm

Maybe the mountain lion will keep the squirrels from getting underfoot...
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Half before a full - looking for input!

Post  Tom H on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:06 pm

I guess one definition of a good hard run workout is that you can really feel it in your legs but they are not quite sore.  That's where I found myself about 3 am this morning.  I was awakened by a tingling in the quads, hammies and glutes, and it took about an hour to settle down enough to get back to sleep.  That clearly hung over into the run today where it just didn't feel right even though pace/HR/cadence were all in a good place.  Did a 7 mile/1 hour run that really just consisted of left-right-repeat.

So, looking for some input on a HM as a tune-up for a full.  I've got a couple of choices, one 4 weeks out and one 3 weeks out that kind of fit the bill with at least a passing similarity to the full course.  I ran a HM HARD 2 weeks before a full in the past, and I think it may have been too high of an effort too close to race day.  SO, here's the question for those in the know:  Which would be better, 3 weeks out or 4, and what should the focus of the HM be - PR, MP to get a good feel for it, or something else?
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Jim Lentz on Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:40 am

@Tom H wrote:I guess one definition of a good hard run workout is that you can really feel it in your legs but they are not quite sore.  That's where I found myself about 3 am this morning.  I was awakened by a tingling in the quads, hammies and glutes, and it took about an hour to settle down enough to get back to sleep.  That clearly hung over into the run today where it just didn't feel right even though pace/HR/cadence were all in a good place.  Did a 7 mile/1 hour run that really just consisted of left-right-repeat.

So, looking for some input on a HM as a tune-up for a full.  I've got a couple of choices, one 4 weeks out and one 3 weeks out that kind of fit the bill with at least a passing similarity to the full course.  I ran a HM HARD 2 weeks before a full in the past, and I think it may have been too high of an effort too close to race day.  SO, here's the question for those in the know:  Which would be better, 3 weeks out or 4, and what should the focus of the HM be - PR, MP to get a good feel for it, or something else?
4 weeks out and MP.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:45 pm

Well, I just ran a half on Sunday which was 3 wks out and it was to be 10 @ MP and 3 harder.  I failed a bit in that I was too fast for the first 10; however, I recovered fine as I just ran track workout at noon and hit the paces easy.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  mountandog on Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:02 pm

@Tom H wrote:I guess one definition of a good hard run workout is that you can really feel it in your legs but they are not quite sore.  That's where I found myself about 3 am this morning.  I was awakened by a tingling in the quads, hammies and glutes, and it took about an hour to settle down enough to get back to sleep.  That clearly hung over into the run today where it just didn't feel right even though pace/HR/cadence were all in a good place.  Did a 7 mile/1 hour run that really just consisted of left-right-repeat.

So, looking for some input on a HM as a tune-up for a full.  I've got a couple of choices, one 4 weeks out and one 3 weeks out that kind of fit the bill with at least a passing similarity to the full course.  I ran a HM HARD 2 weeks before a full in the past, and I think it may have been too high of an effort too close to race day.  SO, here's the question for those in the know:  Which would be better, 3 weeks out or 4, and what should the focus of the HM be - PR, MP to get a good feel for it, or something else?
Depends a bit on your plan and which weekends you have your "20s" planned.  I wouldn't sacrifice a long run for a HM.  So depending on your calendar, do it on your off week.  My preference is 4 weeks out, but again that depends on whether you're going to race it or MP it.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:54 pm

Thanks for all the input on the HM.  You kinda reinforced what I thought was the right answer, but added good logic to the reasoning.  After I posted the question, I looked at the training plan and find that the 4 weeks out HM is the week between 20's, and like you said, I didn't want to give up a 20 if I could help it.  And Michele, I like the idea of 10 @ MP then push it at the end - I may adopt that.  The real question is, do I have the self control not to just race the thing?  Should be interesting. 

Did a 5 mile unplanned run today to try and get the dental anesthetic out of my system faster as it worked so well, even my right ear and temple were numb.  I didn't have a goal for the run when I started out, but it started out feeling good, really good.  Decided somewhere along the way it would be a 'keep it under zone 3' HR run just to see what that would be.  Miles were

Split   HR
8:44  125
8:04  141
7:54  151
7:43  157
7:49  158

In mile 5 I was doing a lot of flirting with zone 3/158 bpm(OK, it was past flirting, it was a date), so had to back off a little bit.  This worked out to an average of an 8:04 and HR of 146, which I like the look of.  MP for me at CIM is an 8:12, but I won't be running the sub-8 splits (at least not until the finish Very Happy ), so hopefully the lower HR will be more sustainable and I'll be able to pull it off.

Not done yet today.  I'm going to the track this evening.  Why is this worth noting?  Because I have NEVER done a track workout before!  In fact, the only time I've been ON a track is the last 200m or so of Eugene that ended on Hayward Field and the last 100 at the Mayor's Midnight Marathon in Anchorage.  Plan for tonight is for 8 miles total, a pyramid workout building to 6 minutes at the peak.  We'll see how this goes.


Edit:  OK, here's how my first EVER track workout went.  Lighting was sub-optimal, with only one bank of lights on.  This meant it was tough to see the Garmin on most of the track, so went from a time-based pyramid to a lap based set.  Warm-up, then pyramid of 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1 laps at respective paces of 7:25, 7:45, 7:27, 6:42, 6:52, 6:50, 6:57, 6:16. Pretty happy with that result.  Legs are pretty sure I'm nuts.

I'm thinkin' I'm going to feel this workout tomorrow  Approval
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:18 am

You will see that I did not really have enough self-control, but I am a bit of an anomaly as my racing HM pace is about 1 min faster than my MP.  Most people find that it is closer to 10-20 sec.  Maybe I don't push myself hard enough for a marathon, but most likely it is because I am really more competitive and suited to the half marathon distance and I always have been (even back in my younger days).


Last edited by Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:52 pm

As posted on FB: 

Legs: WTH were you thinking at that track workout last night? Brain: What? It was fun! Like we were back in high school. Glutes: First, high school was about 40 years ago and second, we never RAN in high school. And you're supposed to be the smart one!! As a concession to the whiney lower half, we did a 3 mile recovery run today with the good fortune to see a beautiful red fox.

The conversation continued along the lines of Glutes: Tell me you didn't already sign up for the HM.  Brain: Well, yes, in fact I did.  Legs:  We're doomed.  Self control is not your forte.  And you're not smart enough to know that.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Mark B on Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:42 pm

@Tom H wrote:As posted on FB: 

Legs: WTH were you thinking at that track workout last night? Brain: What? It was fun! Like we were back in high school. Glutes: First, high school was about 40 years ago and second, we never RAN in high school. And you're supposed to be the smart one!! As a concession to the whiney lower half, we did a 3 mile recovery run today with the good fortune to see a beautiful red fox.

The conversation continued along the lines of Glutes: Tell me you didn't already sign up for the HM.  Brain: Well, yes, in fact I did.  Legs:  We're doomed.  Self control is not your forte.  And you're not smart enough to know that.

lol!

Nicely done.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  mountandog on Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:31 pm

@Tom H wrote:As posted on FB: 

Legs: WTH were you thinking at that track workout last night? Brain: What? It was fun! Like we were back in high school. Glutes: First, high school was about 40 years ago and second, we never RAN in high school. And you're supposed to be the smart one!! As a concession to the whiney lower half, we did a 3 mile recovery run today with the good fortune to see a beautiful red fox.

The conversation continued along the lines of Glutes: Tell me you didn't already sign up for the HM.  Brain: Well, yes, in fact I did.  Legs:  We're doomed.  Self control is not your forte.  And you're not smart enough to know that.
my coach will never let me run a race with a slower objective.  He knows I have no self discipline and will try and PR every friggin time no matter what constraints he put on me.   4 weeks out from the marathon - go for it.  plenty of time to recover.  besides, you'll be coming off a 20 the weekend before so you're gonna be somewhat tired anyway.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:58 pm

20 miles, GREAT and sucky.  First 17 were awesome with pace better than it should have been at a HR lower than expected.  At mile 17 we had stashed a bottle of water knowing we'd need it then, and I went off the trail and down a short steep hill to get it.  After refilling our handhelds, started to run again and what felt like the right AT was really painful/burning.  OUCH!  Stretched, massaged and walked for about a mile until things felt better and I could run again.  Needless to say, pace for the last 3 miles was measurably slower.   

Just for posterity, here's what it looked like.  Mile 11 was a water refill stop, thus the HR drop and pace change as the stop turned out to be a longer potty break for my partner and getting started back up was clunky.

edit: don't know why this spacing turned out so funky, there's no space when I look at it here during composing.  Oh well, keep scrolling down . . .











































































           Split        Pace     HR
19:17119
28:58126
38:49129
48:47132
58:37135
68:39137
78:43136
88:32143
98:31143
108:33145
118:48131
128:48137
138:47139
148:24146
158:26153
168:30153
179:08140
189:28132
199:41135
209:13140
 Summary8:50137
 Home and RICE.  Hope it is OK for tomorrow, I've got a 400m "Chase the villian" superhero run with my 3 year old granddaughter!
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  nkrichards on Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:20 am

Nice run...hope the AT is feeling OK today.

Enjoy the run with your granddaughter...it sounds like it would be a real hoot!
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:31 pm

Well, made yesterday a rest day to give the legs a chance to recover.  Today is a regularly scheduled rest day, and I'm going to honor that as well.  This means I did not run with my superhero granddaughter yesterday, but she was awesome:



And my daughter, dressed as The Flash, PR'd in her 5k.  On top of it all, we got the first rain of the season for us, all of 90 minutes worth, exactly during the two race stretch.  

So I'm telling myself that because I was able to get back to a run and go 3 miles without any further issues, that the AT was just firing a warning shot across the bow.  Looking back, it was by far the most challenging training week I've had with tempo runs on Monday, the crazy fast (for me) track workout on Wednesday, and a 20-mile run on Friday.  In fairness, I guess the AT would have good grounds for complaint.  I'm going to see how tomorrow goes but will likely scale back next week and make a call on next Sunday's HM as I get closer.  If nothing else, this may help me with my self-control issues when I start to have too much fun going fast(er than I should)!
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:25 pm

Huzzah!  A successful run today.  After two days of rest, today called for 10 miles with 4x1 @ tempo.  Bagged the tempo portion as a bad idea after the AT pain last Friday.  We decided we'd run a loopy course that would allow me to break off if issues developed, and most of it was on unpaved but smooth surfaces.  Happy to report that there was no issue with the AT at all!  Started off at a 9:14 for the first mile and just warmed up descending each mile.  In mile 9 posted a 7:38, then the final mile was a cool down.  So maybe didn't totally bag the tempo after all tongue.  The hamstrings were a bit tight after two days off, but I know that'll become a non-issue in short order if I do my stretching, rolling and running.

I find it very interesting how these types of injuries, or perceived injuries, effect my mental state.  On Friday after the run and on Saturday I must admit to being quite grumpy and perhaps not the best of company.  I kept thinking about the impact the AT issue could have on my training and race, and had the great urge to trip any runner who passed me on the trail while I was walking the dog.  Today, after the run, I was all smiles and sunshine.  The train was back on the rails and steaming full speed ahead. 

So I've got the Morgan Hill HM scheduled for next Sunday.  I really like Michele's race plan, run the first 10 at MP, then go for it in the last 3.  I had figured out that I'd run an 8:12 for the first 10, then shoot for a 7:30 for the last 3.  This would give me a good feeling for the race pace and a slight PR if I pull it off.  Then I took a closer look at the course elevation profile, and here's what I'm looking at:



That gave me to pause for some thought.  The first half of the course is definitely challenging, especially the two steep uphills.  They are not especially long, but they are definitely going to cause a significant decrease in pace.  The big downhill will be an opportunity to make up some time, but how much?  At any rate, this does not look to be the course for which that strategy will likely work.  Time for a re-think methinks.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Jim Lentz on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:07 am

You never make up what you lose with hills.
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Re: Rebuilding the Run

Post  Tom H on Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:41 pm

Jim, and therein lies the conundrum.  Would have been nice to find a nice flat race with the right timing, but sometimes you gets what you gets. 

So thus far for CIM have been running a mix of flats, hills and rollers.  Starting with today's run, I'm going to cut down on the flats and hills and increase the rollers.  Unfortunately there are not many choices around me for rollers, so it means I'll be spending a lot of time running around Coyote Hills to get in the miles.  On the plus side, the views of the Bay are great, there can be nice wildlife surprises, and I can mix it up by going counterclockwise every now and again, right? 

Today was 5 miles as a comfortable run at CH.  Plan was for a comfortable run, get in the miles with low stress on the body.  Miles went:

       Pace   HR   Cadence
1     9:04   126     178
2     8:58   137     184
3     8:40   146     186
4     8:21   149     188
5     8:17   152     192

This seems to be a pattern I've developed that is different than any training cycle before.  Most of my unstructured runs seem to pick up the pace with what seems like relative ease compared to structured runs with descending pace.  I'm liking what I'm seeing with HR these days and am really interested in seeing how the HM HR behaves.  With the hilliness of the course, however, it'll be tough to get a fair comparison.  And cadence is a big change.  Back when training for Eugene I was struggling to get to a 180.  The Chi running bits I adopted helped a lot there, but I never saw cadence increases like this with increased pace back then.  It feels good though, so no need for a change I don't think.  I do believe the foot issue I had in my last Tri has move me a bit back toward the heel on my footstrike, so I've got to work on that a bit as I think that could be why my hamstrings are sore more than usual.
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