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Voice Cat LLC & voice-cat.com

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Post  Mark B Tue May 24, 2016 4:52 pm

Scary on the knee, but glad it settled down.

I wouldn't be worried about the lower run. As you mentioned, it was warm and super humid, and you're getting back to it. It'll be fine.

I'll only add one note on MAF: Low HR training has little to do with conditioning the heart. It's just a tachometer, the easiest way to measure the working stress load on the body. It gets lower not as the heart gets stronger, but more as as the slow-twitch fibers in the body adapt and build mitochondria and capillary density.

Conditioning the heart muscle is another process altogether. It involves pushing hard, sucking wind and all that fun stuff.

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Post  ounce Tue May 24, 2016 6:27 pm

Mark B wrote:Scary on the knee, but glad it settled down.

I wouldn't be worried about the lower run. As you mentioned, it was warm and super humid, and you're getting back to it. It'll be fine.

I'll only add one note on MAF: Low HR training has little to do with conditioning the heart. It's just a tachometer, the easiest way to measure the working stress load on the body. It gets lower not as the heart gets stronger, but more as as the slow-twitch fibers in the body adapt and build mitochondria and capillary density.

Conditioning the heart muscle is another process altogether. It involves pushing hard, sucking wind and all that fun stuff.
Yes, on the temperature.  I had thought of that this morning, when the temp was 72 and I was on my way to lift weights.  

I'm suspicious of your thought that the heart gets stronger as fibers are built.  Last week, when I ran Friday's 3 miles faster and at a slower heart rate as compared to last Wednesday's, there wasn't enough time to construct new fibers in just 2 days.  The temps were within 3 degrees of each other.

For me, I think my tach will be how well I maintain cadence.  Pace is a result of cadence and stride length because if you can't maintain cadence at the same stride length, you'll slow down.  Of course, this is on a flat surface.

But let's continue this conversation.  We can only get better or more confused by it!
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Post  ounce Wed May 25, 2016 3:55 pm

Late July arrived early, today, in the weather department.  It was 77 degrees with an identical dewpoint at 5:15.  It was 77 degrees at midnight, too.  I muddled through 4 miles today, but I did do it.  No pain from the knee.  In fact, I have decided, rightly or wrongly, that the knee trouble is a muscle sprain, strain, etc.  So if I'm not experiencing a sharp pain, then it's just part of healing.  I've had a couple of injuries where the chiro said it just that way.

Splits were understandably slowing as the run went along.

4 miles, 56:14, 14:03 pace, 148 avg bpm, 162 max bpm during mile 3, 161 avg cadence, 0.71 m avg stride length.
1.  13:22, 130 bpm, 166 spm, 72 sl
2.  13:33, 155 bpm, 166 spm, 71 sl
3.  14:31, 155 bpm, 159 spm, 70 sl
4.  14:46, 155 bpm, 152 spm, 72 sl

I wanted to run 4 and, aside from the temp induced slowing, I had no pain and I plodded along.  I do really feel like I have just started running.  That shall change.

So, I have a question regarding the 50 mile run.  I know that I'll be walking a lot of that race, probably during the last lap (3 x 16.8 miles).  This weekend, I was planning on walking for about 4 hours because I thought that having some training time in walking mode would be good for when I transition from running to walking.  I would already have a walking pace to do, when I'm too tired to run anymore.  Thoughts?

Thanks for stopping by.
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Post  Mark B Wed May 25, 2016 6:45 pm

Horrible conditions, but at least your knee is getting better.

And YES! Practice walking whenever you can. In addition to a focused long walk, which is a good idea, you can also tack on some walking at the start or end of a run. Or even in the middle, to replicate how it'll probably go for you out there.

(I didn't mean to suggest that aerobic work doesn't improve heart function. But the point of MAF-style training, and the real benefit, comes as your body adapts. And that takes about six weeks to really kick in, with the ability to maintain a pace at that heart rate without slowing over time, and then gradually getting faster overall.)

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Post  ounce Wed May 25, 2016 10:46 pm

Mark B wrote:Horrible conditions, but at least your knee is getting better.

And YES! Practice walking whenever you can. In addition to a focused long walk, which is a good idea, you can also tack on some walking at the start or end of a run. Or even in the middle, to replicate how it'll probably go for you out there.

(I didn't mean to suggest that aerobic work doesn't improve heart function. But the point of MAF-style training, and the real benefit, comes as your body adapts. And that takes about six weeks to really kick in, with the ability to maintain a pace at that heart rate without slowing over time, and then gradually getting faster overall.)
Thank you, sir.

Separately, this afternoon FedEx brought me 1 box of each of the 3 Vespa products.  There are 12 items in each box, which sells for $224 on the website, but my editing work on the website made it free.  I hope that I can stretch out my use of the project, so I can have what I need for JJ100 in 18 months.  Of course, the owner, Peter Defty, might think the total body of editing is worth more, once I'm done.  I wasn't doing it for the Vespa, but it just looked sloppy.
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Post  nkrichards Thu May 26, 2016 9:53 pm

Sounds like the weather is going to make running...uncomfortable...long walks may be a very good choice when it's really bad.  I know that you're used to it and have always had to deal with it but it sure doesn't sound pleasant to me.

Pretty neat that you were rewarded for your hard work with some Vespa product.  Will be nice to be able to experiment with it without shelling out a fortune.  Let us know what you think.

Stay safe and take care of that knee.
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Post  ounce Fri May 27, 2016 7:52 am

nkrichards wrote:Sounds like the weather is going to make running...uncomfortable...long walks may be a very good choice when it's really bad.  I know that you're used to it and have always had to deal with it but it sure doesn't sound pleasant to me.

Pretty neat that you were rewarded for your hard work with some Vespa product.  Will be nice to be able to experiment with it without shelling out a fortune.  Let us know what you think.

Stay safe and take care of that knee.
Thank you, ma'am.  I have a ways to go before it REALLY becomes uncomfortable, even though 77 degrees is pretty bad. pale  But the knee seems like it's part of the solution, now.  The walks are something to get used to doing, specifically training those muscles to make a seamless switch from running to walking. 

As far as Vespa, yeah, that's a nice reward.  Hopefully, I'll get some more because while I can do a 6 hour marathon being fat-adapted and I could do a 50 mile and a 100K under same, reading blogs of people that finish in the top 20 of the JJ100 mile race use the stuff.  So, little ol' me thinks it might be efficacious for a 15 hour and 20 hour, respectively, endurance events.

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This image is an infra-red satellite taken about 5:07 p.m, yesterday.  It measures the temperatures in the top of the clouds. The bluer to purple to white it is, the more likely rain is falling. 

Please fix your gaze at the center where it changes color from orange to purple. 

That border line that heads north to Oklahoma is the Northern jet stream, but the border line that heads southeast to the Gulf is the Pacific jet stream.  Where those jet streams split is Austin.  When a jet stream splits, it creates a void on the other side (the purple and white) that allows the winds to lift and create the potential for heavy rain, winds, dogs mating with cats, etc.  In other words, Rainmageddon.  This event caused the tornadoes in the Bryan-College Station area that was reported on the evening news, yesterday.

Also as a result, a line of rain from Austin east to the Louisiana state line was trained with huge amounts of rain.  Houston proper did not share in this Rainmageddon, but the north part of the county did receive as much rain as it did back on April 18 (now called the 'Tax Day Flood').  About 90 minutes NW of Houston, the municipal airport of Brenham recorded 11.79" in the 6 hour period from 1 p.m. to 7 p.m. by the National Weather Service and 16.33" for the 12 hour period of 1 p.m. Thursday to 1 a.m. Friday.

I was going to run, this morning, but a blob of heavy rain was about hit, as part of a T-storm warning.  It produced 0.69", which is pretty much all of the rain I've had over the past 24 hours.  It's also 66 degrees!  Very Happy

Hopefully, the atmosphere has been wrung out of moisture for a while.  In fact, the morning local news is forecasting 20% chance...subject to change of course.  The upper Low is situated over western Kansas and is to move north today, also a good thing.

Class dismissed.
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Post  ounce Fri May 27, 2016 6:04 pm

An update to Brenham's 24 hour total of 17.53", yesterday, that's a new daily record for Brenham and is the second highest amount for monthly totals, with the highest monthly total of 22" in June, 1899.  There will be a test later.

-30-

So I went up to Memorial Park to run 3 miles, this morning after the rain stopped.  It was 67 degrees with a dewpoint of 66 with cloudy skies and not much of a breeze.

3 miles, 38:01, 12:40 pace, 140 avg bpm, 166 max bpm during mile 3, 168 avg cadence, 0.75 m avg stride length.
1.  12:27, 103 bpm, 168 spm, 77 sl
2.  12:48, 154 bpm, 169 spm, 74 sl
3.  12:45, 162 bpm, 168 spm, 75 sl

10 degrees cool, er, not as warm than Wednesday produced a better result, which is in line with how I do when summer arrives.  It seems I slow down 30 seconds for every 5 degree increase in the temp.  It's just an unscientific ratio I've had in my mind for a few years.  It's not a slam dunk to run three miles, since returning to running, last week.  But I'll trudge on and acquire endurance.

After the first mile, I purposely slowed down some because I wanted to run uncomfortably comfortable for the other 2 miles.  I believe there is some 'trash' in my legs because it seemed like I wasn't getting full support of the running muscles.  Since it takes about 6 weeks to construct new muscle cells and fibers, I think the end of June ought to show some improvements.

Tomorrow will be a rare summer event, even rarer because it's a 4 hour walk.  2 hours out and 2 hours back.  Instead of going east down Memorial Drive, like I usually go in 90% of my training runs, I'm going to go west on Memorial Drive.  Partly because I want to see how runner-friendly the pavement is (sidewalks and quality of such), but also to see if there are any water fountains or the like.  I plan on doing some training for the 50 by going west on Memorial, so this will be a good recon mission.

Y'all have a good weekend.
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Post  nkrichards Sat May 28, 2016 5:43 pm

Hope the walk is going/went well!  Was the Memorial Drive walk on Memorial Day weekend planned or a coincidence?  It sounds like a good plan either way.
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Post  ounce Sat May 28, 2016 7:05 pm

nkrichards wrote:Hope the walk is going/went well!  Was the Memorial Drive walk on Memorial Day weekend planned or a coincidence?  It sounds like a good plan either way.
Hey, Nancy.  For the most part, it went well.  It was coincidental.  However, Memorial Drive and Memorial Park is named for the WWI vets.  Memorial Park was a WWI camp called Camp Logan.

I covered 13.65 miles or a 17:35 pace in exactly 4:00:00.  That was a coincidence, too.  It was 64 degrees with 100% humidity, a second morning in a row with below 70 degree morning temps.  I started out shortly before 6.  I covered 6.8 miles in the first half and 6.85 miles in the second.


Avg HR was 107, but it didn't pick up the first mile, so maybe 110 average.  However, after the walk, my left heel was very sore, it seemed like I was getting a blister on the left foot, forward of the ball of the foot and rear of the 2nd & 3rd toes, and my right knee pitched a fit when I was so inconsiderate as to think I could raise my leg higher than I had for the prior 4 hours.


Both hurts ganged up on me after seeing "Captain America Civil War" by making me look like a cripple as I limped down the stairs.  Right now, the knee is fine, but the heel has sharp pain that settles to a mild whine after doing a little easy walking.  But I limp the first few steps.  I iced it, but that didn't seem to do any good.  Overuse, I figure.

Accomplishing the 13.65 miles in 4 hours made me think of a split for the 50 mile race, next year.  I was thinking that if I could run 40 miles in 10 hours and walk 10 in 4 hours, then that would give me a 1 hour cushion on finishing within the 15 hour time limit.  It's 3 laps of 16.8 miles.  Thoughts?

I was reading an ultra coach's blog and he quipped that ultras are the only running race where you train faster than you run the race.
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Post  Mark B Sat May 28, 2016 10:45 pm

ounce wrote:
I was reading an ultra coach's blog and he quipped that ultras are the only running race where you train faster than you run the race.

Yeah, pretty much. Especially if you train on roads and race on trails. Trails slow you down pretty much automatically.

A 4:1 ratio of running to walking sounds doable in that time window, though I wouldn't suggest saving all the walking until the last 10 miles. If you include some walking sections earlier, you might be able to maintain a more or less steady pace throughout, and that's easier on the body -- and more importantly, the psyche.

That's an insane amount of rainfall in 24 hours. Poor Brenham! That's substantially more rain that we got for an entire year once when we lived in SoCal. Maybe two, actually. Crazy.

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Post  ounce Sun May 29, 2016 10:14 pm

Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:
I was reading an ultra coach's blog and he quipped that ultras are the only running race where you train faster than you run the race.

Yeah, pretty much. Especially if you train on roads and race on trails. Trails slow you down pretty much automatically.

A 4:1 ratio of running to walking sounds doable in that time window, though I wouldn't suggest saving all the walking until the last 10 miles. If you include some walking sections earlier, you might be able to maintain a more or less steady pace throughout, and that's easier on the body -- and more importantly, the psyche.

That's an insane amount of rainfall in 24 hours. Poor Brenham! That's substantially more rain that we got for an entire year once when we lived in SoCal. Maybe two, actually. Crazy.
Yeah, Brenham got popped hard.  Now, as I write, that water is flowing down to the Gulf in the Brazos River.  Downstream, the town of Rosenberg is experiencing a flood due to the Brazos running out of its banks.  It's not supposed to lower until Thursday.  We're supposed to get more rain on Thursday and Friday, much like last week.

I didn't know it, but May and June is the season for Mesoscale Convective Systems (MCS) in Texas, which is what we're having.  Below is the one from Friday, which is similar to the one I posted on Friday that was Thursday's MCS.  Looks like a flame thrower.



Voice Cat LLC & voice-cat.com - Page 15 Satgif3

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So, Mark, let's ponder this a moment.  See if I've caught what you're pitching.  Under the 4:1 and finishing in 14 hours, I would run 4 and walk 1, 10 times.  This would average running a 16.5 minute running pace and an 18 minute walking pace (I plugged in the 18 minute pace and backed into the running pace).  I can see the benefit of this peanut butter approach (spreading over the distance), but wouldn't the last 10-20 miles be very difficult and maintaining the 16.5 & 18 pace more difficult than the 40-10 deal?  (I might answer that as, "Both will still make you tired at the end.")

And if I do a 4:1, it would seem that I would need to train a 4:1, too.  Correct?  Even Houston, which is about 10 weeks before Brazos Bend (but at a faster pace due to 13:45 minimum overall pace)?

My Garmin won't last 14 hours, so I might have to do it old school and do it with the clock and multiplying.  I do like having 60 minutes as a cushion, though.  Might even finish before it gets dark, too!  Thanks.

-30-

This morning, my heel got better as the day went on, the knee was a bit tight but also got better as the day went on, but I do have shin splints on both shins with the muscle lateral to the shin bones being the culprit.
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Post  ounce Mon May 30, 2016 9:06 am

I ran 3 miles, this morning, in a slow, plodding way.  It was 70 degrees with an equal dewpoint.  I actually had stopped just past a half of a mile and started to go home because 'I just wasn't feeling it.'  Then, I turned around and continued running because with as little endurance as I presently have, I didn't have the right to stop.  So whether I can run at 170 cadence or much lower, endurance has to be built.

-30-

This is a quick fact about the amount of water going over the Lake Houston spillway due to the rain, plus the rain from Dallas that flows through Lake Houston into Galveston Bay.  Credit the meteorologist from the Harris County Flood Control District for this.
Lake Houston:

Flow over the spillway peaked at 47.82 ft yesterday afternoon which is estimated to be about 150,000cfs of 4 billion gallons of water per minute. This amount of flow would fill the Houston Astrodome every 5 minutes. Flow over the spillway in October 1994 was around 300,000 cfs.
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Post  ounce Tue May 31, 2016 9:12 am

Did some weights, this morning.  Added some weight, too.  It was needed.  I found a machine to work on my shins.  It was a calf machine!  The ol' action of flexion and extension, while sitting on my fanny.  I was able to stay in pigeon pose for 2-1/2 minutes on the right leg without any whining.

However, my right leg will still get whiny, when inactive.  Like last week, yesterday I donated some platelets.  Because I give double the amount of platelets in one sitting, it takes about 70 minutes from scrubbing to band-aid of sitting still.  It loosens up quickly and is just about all gone by the time I get back home.
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Post  ounce Tue May 31, 2016 11:21 am

Since my Garmin won't last 14 hours, what if I measured my running based on time, instead of miles.  My Garmin will more than last 14 hours, just being a watch.

That 4 miles-1 mile run/walk becomes 66 minute-18 minutes run/walk.  A little easier to time and track, especially later in the race when my mind might be like Homer Simpson after consuming the merciless pepper of Quetzalacatenango.  I doubt there are mile markers, although I could figure out by looking at the map the distances between aid stations.

If I thought I could maintain a 15 minute pace, it would be much easier to track.

Just typing out loud.
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Post  Mark B Tue May 31, 2016 5:08 pm

ounce wrote:So, Mark, let's ponder this a moment.  See if I've caught what you're pitching.  Under the 4:1 and finishing in 14 hours, I would run 4 and walk 1, 10 times.  This would average running a 16.5 minute running pace and an 18 minute walking pace (I plugged in the 18 minute pace and backed into the running pace).  I can see the benefit of this peanut butter approach (spreading over the distance), but wouldn't the last 10-20 miles be very difficult and maintaining the 16.5 & 18 pace more difficult than the 40-10 deal?  (I might answer that as, "Both will still make you tired at the end.")

And if I do a 4:1, it would seem that I would need to train a 4:1, too.  Correct?  Even Houston, which is about 10 weeks before Brazos Bend (but at a faster pace due to 13:45 minimum overall pace)?

My Garmin won't last 14 hours, so I might have to do it old school and do it with the clock and multiplying.  I do like having 60 minutes as a cushion, though.  Might even finish before it gets dark, too!  Thanks.

-30-

This morning, my heel got better as the day went on, the knee was a bit tight but also got better as the day went on, but I do have shin splints on both shins with the muscle lateral to the shin bones being the culprit.

Do not be under any illusions: Miles 30-50 are going to be difficult. The only variable will be whether they'll be merely difficult or a total sufferfest. The idea of a 4:1 split is to marshal your strength so you still have some left when you enter the undiscovered country from which no man returns. Once you're there, the only goal is relentless forward progress.

And you can totally do it by time rather than distance. In fact, that probably makes more sense. I'd lower the time between walking segments, though. Maybe run 16, walk 4. Or even run 4 walk 1. Or run 5 walk 1. You can research that walk-run approach online, and I think there are as many options out there as runners.

And yes, practicing it would be a good idea, so your body doesn't mistake the lowered effort level as a sign that it's time to go find a comfy chair and a frosty beverage and stay there. Smile It'll also help you find a ratio that works for you.

I've heard of people having two Garmins just for such long events so they don't find themselves without. But that's kind of an expensive option, unless you were getting ready to upgrade anyway.

Keep being careful with those knees and feet!

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Post  ounce Tue May 31, 2016 9:41 pm

Thanks, Mark.

Your phrase "relentless forward progress' was mentioned in this link:
http://www.joyfulathlete.com/2007/02/22/how-to-run-your-first-50-miler/

To get a pace for a 5 minute run/1 minute walk plan, I guess I just need to do the math?
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Post  ounce Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:47 pm

ounce wrote:Thanks, Mark.

Your phrase "relentless forward progress' was mentioned in this link:
http://www.joyfulathlete.com/2007/02/22/how-to-run-your-first-50-miler/

To get a pace for a 5 minute run/1 minute walk plan, I guess I just need to do the math?
I haven't extended to 50 mile length the pace yet, but at a 15 minute pace it would take me 18 total minutes on a 5/1 plan.  Well, just extended it and it works out to exactly 15 hours, the course time limit.  I'll have to work on that.  Maybe run for the first hour, then do 5/1 or just run a bit faster for the first couple of hours to build up the buffer.

-30-

I ran three miles, this morning, in 73 degree weather with the lower humidity of 98%.  I didn't notice.  There was no residual tenderness in any of the appendages.  I was a bit tired, after the run, so I haven't mastered 3 miles worth of endurance yet with mid-70's temps.  And the beat goes on.
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Post  Mark B Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:19 pm

ounce wrote:
ounce wrote:Thanks, Mark.

Your phrase "relentless forward progress' was mentioned in this link:
http://www.joyfulathlete.com/2007/02/22/how-to-run-your-first-50-miler/

To get a pace for a 5 minute run/1 minute walk plan, I guess I just need to do the math?
I haven't extended to 50 mile length the pace yet, but at a 15 minute pace it would take me 18 total minutes on a 5/1 plan.  Well, just extended it and it works out to exactly 15 hours, the course time limit.  I'll have to work on that.  Maybe run for the first hour, then do 5/1 or just run a bit faster for the first couple of hours to build up the buffer.

-30-

I ran three miles, this morning, in 73 degree weather with the lower humidity of 98%.  I didn't notice.  There was no residual tenderness in any of the appendages.  I was a bit tired, after the run, so I haven't mastered 3 miles worth of endurance yet with mid-70's temps.  And the beat goes on.

I'm too lazy to do the math and it's unpredictable. If I were you, I'd go out and do a 5:1 run/walk and see what it works out to in the real world. That'll be better than any calculations you could work up.

For what it's worth, some people find that they can do the running portion a little faster due to the walking and its attendant clearing of lactate from the bloodstream.

There's also another source for "Relentless Forward Progress" -- a pretty good book on ultras.

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Post  nkrichards Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:15 pm

No experience on anything longer than 26.2 and no experience with a run/walk pace but Marks advice sure sounds logical.  I'd think a run/walk from the beginning would be a better plan than running till you can't run anymore.  If that's your plan it does make sense to start training with a run/walk so you know what to expect.  Any thoughts about doing your marathon that way?

"relentless forward progress" sounds like a good name for a blog to me...
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Post  nkrichards Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:00 pm

You're all over the news here!

Do you need to borrow a snorkel and fins...or a boat?

Hope all's well...
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Post  ounce Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:01 pm

nkrichards wrote:You're all over the news here!

Do you need to borrow a snorkel and fins...or a boat?

Hope all's well...
Yeah, we're doing our best to keep some political race from taking the #1 spot on the national news, all the time. 

For the most part, Houston proper is in good shape.  Houston's issue is flash flooding when 4" drops in an hour.  Our bayous and creeks can't swallow that much.  In the counties that border Houston's Harris county, flooding from rivers is their devil.  Richmond, Texas has been getting most of the press with the Brazos running 4' above its previous all time record.  But, the county on our east is having river troubles as well.
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Granbury, Texas is up in the Fort Worth area and they've had the video of a Jeep getting carried off and a pickup truck getting carried off by overflowing creeks.  Plus, the Fort Hood soldiers that died is really bad.

Here, we're supposed to have 70% chance of rain tomorrow.  Houston's rain to date is 36" or about twice normal.

Oh, did I mention it's hurricane season?
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Post  Mark B Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:27 pm

Good lord! Was there some ancient curse you guys accidentally triggered? This rainfall is nuts.

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Post  ounce Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:07 pm

Mark B wrote:Good lord! Was there some ancient curse you guys accidentally triggered? This rainfall is nuts.
Yeah, it's the El Nino farewell tour.  The La Nina farewell tour in 2011 was the drought that killed hundreds of thousands of trees in Houston.  That year, we received 11 inches of rain.  All year.

Since we're on a weather theme, today is the 15th anniversary (June 5, 2001) of the arrival of Tropical Storm Allison and 7" of rain, then Allison got blocked up between Dallas and Shreveport, LA.  It returned on June 9 to impart a couple feet of rain.  EVERY major freeway in Houston was flooded.  https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=tropical+storm+allison&id=34BFD9FA3ADCD783F711280CFAFF149F556324CF&FORM=IQFRBA

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/hgx/stormsignals/vol86.pdf

Allison was the worst flooding since the 1930's.  The county has done a lot of drainage work in the 15 years and it shows in how well water flows now.  We'll never get away from flooding, but we can do more to make it not as bad.  And we are. 

As a result of Allison's damage, its name was retired by the National Hurricane Center...the only tropical storm to have that happen.  This was all part of our world through September 10, 2001.
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Post  Mark B Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:13 pm

Wow, those photos of Tropical Storm Allison are something else again.

I've heard we may be transitioning to a La Niña soon, so who knows how that will complicate things for all of us. All I'd heard is that it means we'd be more likely to have a cooler summer. Cooler than spring, hopefully, when we nearly cracked 100 degrees over the past two days?


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