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Trails for Two

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:06 pm

And what I should do, I just did. 

Dropped from the race, canceled the hotel reservation (saving $360, so there's that).

Even if the leg miraculously got better in the next 15 seconds, it'd be highly likely to blow up on me again at some time during the race. I really want to finish this race after last year's DNF, but this isn't the year. The odds would be great that I'd DNF this year, too, or spend much of the race whimpering in pain. I'm a glutton for punishment, but even I'm not that masochistic. 

I sent an email to the RDs offering my services as a volunteer. (Alita's doing it already.) We can just drive up that morning and head back that evening.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 pm

Mark B wrote:Back from the doctor, and Dr. Ounce is pretty much on target.

He checked the knee ligaments and told me I have not "ruined" myself and that he does not think surgery is necessary.

That said, I'm definitely injured and definitely need PT. He's thinking a strained gastroc, but said a PT evaluation is needed to really nail it down. (I like that he's able to admit that. Not all doctors would. )

When it came to the race, he said it wouldn't kill me, but it'd quite likely hurt like hell and delay the recovery process. Since the muscles affected are the ones that stabilize and protect the knee, there'd be a higher risk of getting some other injury.

Putting it off a year would be the wiser option. He even suggested going up to volunteer. 

So there you have it. I think we all know what I should do.
Start training for American Ninja Warrior!

Be sure to bring good visual aids when you get your diagnosis and, of course, the painful regimen to get you right again.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  nkrichards on Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:26 am

Mark B wrote:And what I should do, I just did. 

Dropped from the race, canceled the hotel reservation (saving $360, so there's that).

Even if the leg miraculously got better in the next 15 seconds, it'd be highly likely to blow up on me again at some time during the race. I really want to finish this race after last year's DNF, but this isn't the year. The odds would be great that I'd DNF this year, too, or spend much of the race whimpering in pain. I'm a glutton for punishment, but even I'm not that masochistic. 

I sent an email to the RDs offering my services as a volunteer. (Alita's doing it already.) We can just drive up that morning and head back that evening.

I guess it wasn't really a tough decision but it is a tough break.  I know that this was your goal race for the year.  Next year...

Hope they accept your offer to volunteer and that you and Alita enjoy doing that.  It's a gorgeous area.  We didn't travel much when I was growing up...to busy farming.  Little Crater Lake was one place I do remember my Dad taking us to.  The other was the Head of the Metolius River.

Curious what they have you do for PT.  Keep us posted.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:59 pm

ounce wrote:
Mark B wrote:Back from the doctor, and Dr. Ounce is pretty much on target.

He checked the knee ligaments and told me I have not "ruined" myself and that he does not think surgery is necessary.

That said, I'm definitely injured and definitely need PT. He's thinking a strained gastroc, but said a PT evaluation is needed to really nail it down. (I like that he's able to admit that. Not all doctors would. )

When it came to the race, he said it wouldn't kill me, but it'd quite likely hurt like hell and delay the recovery process. Since the muscles affected are the ones that stabilize and protect the knee, there'd be a higher risk of getting some other injury.

Putting it off a year would be the wiser option. He even suggested going up to volunteer. 

So there you have it. I think we all know what I should do.
Start training for American Ninja Warrior!

Be sure to bring good visual aids when you get your diagnosis and, of course, the painful regimen to get you right again.

The definite diagnosis will have to wait, since I can't get in to see a PT until Aug. 2. I'll regale you with a few theories when I have a chance. 

And yes, I'll be starting old PT exercises for hips and such long before I see the PT. At least she won't get to laugh at my weak glutes!

nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:And what I should do, I just did. 

Dropped from the race, canceled the hotel reservation (saving $360, so there's that).

Even if the leg miraculously got better in the next 15 seconds, it'd be highly likely to blow up on me again at some time during the race. I really want to finish this race after last year's DNF, but this isn't the year. The odds would be great that I'd DNF this year, too, or spend much of the race whimpering in pain. I'm a glutton for punishment, but even I'm not that masochistic. 

I sent an email to the RDs offering my services as a volunteer. (Alita's doing it already.) We can just drive up that morning and head back that evening.

I guess it wasn't really a tough decision but it is a tough break.  I know that this was your goal race for the year.  Next year...

Hope they accept your offer to volunteer and that you and Alita enjoy doing that.  It's a gorgeous area.  We didn't travel much when I was growing up...to busy farming.  Little Crater Lake was one place I do remember my Dad taking us to.  The other was the Head of the Metolius River.

Curious what they have you do for PT.  Keep us posted.

I'm curious, too. I'll be mostly healed by then, I'm guessing (I hope), but I'm imagining more calf strengthening might be in order. But given the freak nature of how I got hurt (dang water wagon), it's not like there's some muscle imbalance issue that needs to be resolved. At least, I don't think so.

I've signed up to staff the timing table for the 50K. The RDs are nice people. I'm glad I can help out.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:35 pm

Ask the doc or PT or research how much protein you need to be eating every day in order to provide the building blocks for the mitochondria to make new muscle cells.  I've been told 100-150 grams of protein a day.

Let me tell you what 100 grams equates to regarding raw meat of any type (beef, fish, chicken, pork either in a can (like canned tuna) or in the meat case).

The general rule of thumb is the digital equivalent of 16 ounces of a raw meat (boneless) is 1.00 pound.  Move the decimal point to the right two spaces and you get 100.  This is the general amount of protein grams in that raw meat.  100 grams.
8 ounces of raw meat is half a pound or 0.50 pounds.  Move the decimal point to the right two spaces and you get 50.  A half pound of ground beef is 50 grams of protein.

A McDonalds Quarter Pounder has a 1/4 pound of beef in it.  1/4 pound is 0.25 pounds. Move 2 decimals and you get 25.  25 grams of protein.  Now, the bun might have some in it, but you get at least 25 grams of protein.  And so on and so on.

The decimal weight of meat at the grocery store, e.g. 1.57 pounds of ground beef, is the protein gram contained in the package, when you move the decimal to the right 2 spaces.  157 grams.

This doesn't work with prepared items like cold cuts, canned chili, etc.

As a general rule of thumb, this works every single time.  So, it's easy to calculate protein grams in meat.

Class dismissed.  Good luck!
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:00 pm

ounce wrote:Ask the doc or PT or research how much protein you need to be eating every day in order to provide the building blocks for the mitochondria to make new muscle cells.  I've been told 100-150 grams of protein a day.

Let me tell you what 100 grams equates to regarding raw meat of any type (beef, fish, chicken, pork either in a can (like canned tuna) or in the meat case).

The general rule of thumb is the digital equivalent of 16 ounces of a raw meat (boneless) is 1.00 pound.  Move the decimal point to the right two spaces and you get 100.  This is the general amount of protein grams in that raw meat.  100 grams.
8 ounces of raw meat is half a pound or 0.50 pounds.  Move the decimal point to the right two spaces and you get 50.  A half pound of ground beef is 50 grams of protein.

A McDonalds Quarter Pounder has a 1/4 pound of beef in it.  1/4 pound is 0.25 pounds. Move 2 decimals and you get 25.  25 grams of protein.  Now, the bun might have some in it, but you get at least 25 grams of protein.  And so on and so on.

The decimal weight of meat at the grocery store, e.g. 1.57 pounds of ground beef, is the protein gram contained in the package, when you move the decimal to the right 2 spaces.  157 grams.

This doesn't work with prepared items like cold cuts, canned chili, etc.

As a general rule of thumb, this works every single time.  So, it's easy to calculate protein grams in meat.

Class dismissed.  Good luck!

Wow, that's a lot of meat! We've had some terrific chili colorado the past few days, but we haven't sucked down that much.

Extra weird note on the doctor visit. My BP came in at 92/50! The doc asked if I get dizzy standing up. I said no, and he said it was no big deal, that it means I'll probably live a long time. Oookay.... I can live with that.   Suspect

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:20 pm

Silly boy.


92/50.  Must be that change to the day shift.  You best ask your family if they want you around that long.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  nkrichards on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:11 am

Mark B wrote:


Extra weird note on the doctor visit. My BP came in at 92/50! The doc asked if I get dizzy standing up. I said no, and he said it was no big deal, that it means I'll probably live a long time. Oookay.... I can live with that.   Suspect
That's an impressive BP Mark!  Is it normally low?  As long as you're not having dizzy spells it sounds like a good thing.

Out of curiosity do you know what your resting HR normally is?

Since you are going to live so long I guess you have lots of time to recover and prepare for another race. Smile
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:13 pm

ounce wrote:Silly boy.


92/50.  Must be that change to the day shift.  You best ask your family if they want you around that long.

Must be a glitch in the system. And speaking of systems, if I am around for "that long" - it looks like I'll be able to afford to retire when I'm, oh, 89.

nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:


Extra weird note on the doctor visit. My BP came in at 92/50! The doc asked if I get dizzy standing up. I said no, and he said it was no big deal, that it means I'll probably live a long time. Oookay.... I can live with that.   Suspect
That's an impressive BP Mark!  Is it normally low?  As long as you're not having dizzy spells it sounds like a good thing.

Out of curiosity do you know what your resting HR normally is?

Since you are going to live so long I guess you have lots of time to recover and prepare for another race. Smile

My BP is usually textbook "good" - like about 110/70 or so. Every once it a while, it spikes high, for no obvious reason, and sometimes it drops low like it did the other day. The lowest I've seen before this is 90/60. 

My resting HR has gotten down to the upper 40s before, but lately hasn't been getting any lower than the mid 50s. 

And good point on the lots of time to rest and recover. Though it makes the whole "mile per year" notion of challenges a little daunting about 50 years from now. Shocked

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:53 pm

Time for pictures!

I thought I'd drop in a few images showing where my owie is,  and showing why it's so tricky to pin down.



Much of my pain is near the the lateral head of the gastroc muscle (figure A), but you see that's also where the soleus (figure B) and plantaris (figure C) muscle attach, too. It could be any -- or all -- of them.



It could also involve the bicep femoris muscle, one of the hamstrings, which ALSO attaches in about the same spot. Honestly, I feel pain both above and below that spot, so it might be all of them. Can't wait for the PT to figure it out.


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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:05 pm

To me, it looks like the Gastroc muscle attaches to the base of the femur, where the Soleus muscle attaches to the posterior head of the Fibula.  Not sure how that changes things, but if the pain is in the kneepit, that might reduce the 'suspects' of muscles that make up your owie.

I'm going to guess the PT will be able to pinpoint which of the choices is your malady.  I would be curious to know, when the PT makes the decision, why it isn't the 'other' muscle.  It could be process of elimination based on what happened or a 'more than likely it's X' decision.

Maybe consult the Magic 8 Ball!?
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:48 pm

ounce wrote:To me, it looks like the Gastroc muscle attaches to the base of the femur, where the Soleus muscle attaches to the posterior head of the Fibula.  Not sure how that changes things, but if the pain is in the kneepit, that might reduce the 'suspects' of muscles that make up your owie.

I'm going to guess the PT will be able to pinpoint which of the choices is your malady.  I would be curious to know, when the PT makes the decision, why it isn't the 'other' muscle.  It could be process of elimination based on what happened or a 'more than likely it's X' decision.

Maybe consult the Magic 8 Ball!?

Being that the pain is sometimes above the kneepit, and sometimes below, I'm wondering if it's BOTH. Unless it's the plantaris muscle, which attaches to the femur and runs under the soleus. It's an unusual little muscle that is rarely injured, which greatly increases the chances that it's EXACTLY the thing I tweaked. (Unless it's the popliteus underneath.)



Went for a 3-mile walk today. The walk felt pretty good, but it's somewhat stiff and sore now. Yup. Dropping the race was definitely the right idea.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:10 am

Yeah, it may be one of them is secondary to the other as collateral damage.  Gosh, isn't it great trying to figure out the problem with all the medical experience we have???

The stiff part seems like crap in the muscles and the sore part seems like the actual damage.  TENS unit would really be a nifty tool to have.

Fluff's claws in the knee pit area might take your mind off the stiff and sore parts. StirPot
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:48 am

ounce wrote:Yeah, it may be one of them is secondary to the other as collateral damage.  Gosh, isn't it great trying to figure out the problem with all the medical experience we have???

The stiff part seems like crap in the muscles and the sore part seems like the actual damage.  TENS unit would really be a nifty tool to have.

Fluff's claws in the knee pit area might take your mind off the stiff and sore parts. StirPot

Hm. Catupunture sounds like a viable option right about now. It got a LOT more stiff and sore (actually, it's more sore and weak than stiff and sore) as the day progressed. Guess 3 miles was too much. Grr.

Yeah. Dr. Google is pretty convenient, but he can't match the skills of a PT who knows how to poke and prod until they have to peel you off the ceiling. It's sad that I have to wait so long to see one. Part of me hopes there's enough residual pain for her to figure out the problem, then the rest of me goes, "ARE YOU CRAZY!? YOU DON'T WANT TO BE UNABLE TO RUN OR WALK ANY REASONABLE DISTANCE FOUR DAYS FROM NOW, LET ALONE FOUR WEEKS!"

And so it goes.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:55 pm

At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:04 pm

ounce wrote:At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.

I am somewhat limited by insurance. I'm in a Kaiser Permanente HMO. Out-of-network isn't a possibility.

The trouble is, summer is a big time for PTs. Lots of people out damaging themselves, it seems.

I've put in (again) to jump in to a cancellation, should one occur, and I opened up the field to more than just my favorite PT. I just want to know what's going on so I can treat it right and get it healed up.

Not a fan of chiropractors.

As far as the "walk until you feel sharp pain" goes, that's not a good strategy for me. When I did the 3 miles, it felt fine. But I've been limping off and on ever since. Since we're planning to do a lot of walking/hiking later this month in Hawaii, I'd rather not push it too far and get myself hobbled up for the big trip.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  nkrichards on Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:17 pm

Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.

I am somewhat limited by insurance. I'm in a Kaiser Permanente HMO. Out-of-network isn't a possibility.

The trouble is, summer is a big time for PTs. Lots of people out damaging themselves, it seems.

I've put in (again) to jump in to a cancellation, should one occur, and I opened up the field to more than just my favorite PT. I just want to know what's going on so I can treat it right and get it healed up.

Not a fan of chiropractors.

As far as the "walk until you feel sharp pain" goes, that's not a good strategy for me. When I did the 3 miles, it felt fine. But I've been limping off and on ever since. Since we're planning to do a lot of walking/hiking later this month in Hawaii, I'd rather not push it too far and get myself hobbled up for the big trip.

We had Kaiser insurance when the kids were little and we lived on the west side of the mountain.  Great when it works but...  It actually worked pretty well for the kids but I've heard complaints similar to yours.  We don't have a choice other than individual insurance now and are forced to buy a very high deductible as even that is nearly over $1500/month.  It pays for the occasional preventative care visit but is essentially just for catastrophic events...ie heart attacks while out of town...  Because of our high deductible we often just chose to pay for things like you're describing out of pocket.  We won't reach our deductible anyway and the provider often gives us a nice discount for cash.  I sure hope that they do something to resolve the situation we're in with health care/health insurance.  Our rates and deductibles have tripled since Obama Care was passed into law.

Take care of yourself...I agree that walking until you feel sharp pain doesn't sound like the best option.  You definitely need to be healthy for your big trip!

HOT here...not the best running weather.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:02 pm

nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.

I am somewhat limited by insurance. I'm in a Kaiser Permanente HMO. Out-of-network isn't a possibility.

The trouble is, summer is a big time for PTs. Lots of people out damaging themselves, it seems.

I've put in (again) to jump in to a cancellation, should one occur, and I opened up the field to more than just my favorite PT. I just want to know what's going on so I can treat it right and get it healed up.

Not a fan of chiropractors.

As far as the "walk until you feel sharp pain" goes, that's not a good strategy for me. When I did the 3 miles, it felt fine. But I've been limping off and on ever since. Since we're planning to do a lot of walking/hiking later this month in Hawaii, I'd rather not push it too far and get myself hobbled up for the big trip.

We had Kaiser insurance when the kids were little and we lived on the west side of the mountain.  Great when it works but...  It actually worked pretty well for the kids but I've heard complaints similar to yours.  We don't have a choice other than individual insurance now and are forced to buy a very high deductible as even that is nearly over $1500/month.  It pays for the occasional preventative care visit but is essentially just for catastrophic events...ie heart attacks while out of town...  Because of our high deductible we often just chose to pay for things like you're describing out of pocket.  We won't reach our deductible anyway and the provider often gives us a nice discount for cash.  I sure hope that they do something to resolve the situation we're in with health care/health insurance.  Our rates and deductibles have tripled since Obama Care was passed into law.

Take care of yourself...I agree that walking until you feel sharp pain doesn't sound like the best option.  You definitely need to be healthy for your big trip!

HOT here...not the best running weather.

Yeah, our health care system could be much better than it is right now. I have employer-sponsored health care, but a $2,000 deductible on anything significant. Luckily, office visits and PT sessions require only a copay.


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Re: Trails for Two

Post  nkrichards on Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:46 pm

Mark B wrote:
nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.

I am somewhat limited by insurance. I'm in a Kaiser Permanente HMO. Out-of-network isn't a possibility.

The trouble is, summer is a big time for PTs. Lots of people out damaging themselves, it seems.

I've put in (again) to jump in to a cancellation, should one occur, and I opened up the field to more than just my favorite PT. I just want to know what's going on so I can treat it right and get it healed up.

Not a fan of chiropractors.

As far as the "walk until you feel sharp pain" goes, that's not a good strategy for me. When I did the 3 miles, it felt fine. But I've been limping off and on ever since. Since we're planning to do a lot of walking/hiking later this month in Hawaii, I'd rather not push it too far and get myself hobbled up for the big trip.

We had Kaiser insurance when the kids were little and we lived on the west side of the mountain.  Great when it works but...  It actually worked pretty well for the kids but I've heard complaints similar to yours.  We don't have a choice other than individual insurance now and are forced to buy a very high deductible as even that is nearly over $1500/month.  It pays for the occasional preventative care visit but is essentially just for catastrophic events...ie heart attacks while out of town...  Because of our high deductible we often just chose to pay for things like you're describing out of pocket.  We won't reach our deductible anyway and the provider often gives us a nice discount for cash.  I sure hope that they do something to resolve the situation we're in with health care/health insurance.  Our rates and deductibles have tripled since Obama Care was passed into law.

Take care of yourself...I agree that walking until you feel sharp pain doesn't sound like the best option.  You definitely need to be healthy for your big trip!

HOT here...not the best running weather.

Yeah, our health care system could be much better than it is right now. I have employer-sponsored health care, but a $2,000 deductible on anything significant. Luckily, office visits and PT sessions require only a copay.


Oh what I would give for an affordable plan with a $2000 deductible.  Our individual deductible is $7,150 in net work and $26,200 out of net work!!  The problem is that several specialists in the area are out of net work and we either have to pay the out of net work deductible or travel to Portland.  Neither is a good option.

Waiting 4 weeks would be an unacceptable option as well...I know that didn't make you feel any better...sorry!

If it's any consolation...it's to hot to train anyway.  Stay inside and work on the itinerary for your Hawaii trip.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:20 pm

nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:
nkrichards wrote:
Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:At the risk of being serious, it would seem like you're limited in access to a PT due to insurance (unless everybody is hurt at the same time).

Presuming that you're wanting an in-network provider, does the medical insurance you have allow for out-of-network costs you incur to count against your combined annual deductible or does the medical insurance segregate the in-network annual deductible from the out-of-network annual deductible?

I know of some chiropractors that have PT as part of their normal operation that will charge the insurance company for amounts that will knock a huge chunk (if you need a lot of visits) out of your annual deductible. You'll be paying an amount that is smaller than what they're billing the insurance company, but ends up about what the chiropractor would be getting from the insurance company.

Just a thought.

As far as your malady, walk until you get a sharp pain or you've gone 3 miles, whichever comes first.  Whining is different than a sharp pain. 

3 miles wasn't too much.  You have muscle soreness a la Fluff.

I am somewhat limited by insurance. I'm in a Kaiser Permanente HMO. Out-of-network isn't a possibility.

The trouble is, summer is a big time for PTs. Lots of people out damaging themselves, it seems.

I've put in (again) to jump in to a cancellation, should one occur, and I opened up the field to more than just my favorite PT. I just want to know what's going on so I can treat it right and get it healed up.

Not a fan of chiropractors.

As far as the "walk until you feel sharp pain" goes, that's not a good strategy for me. When I did the 3 miles, it felt fine. But I've been limping off and on ever since. Since we're planning to do a lot of walking/hiking later this month in Hawaii, I'd rather not push it too far and get myself hobbled up for the big trip.

We had Kaiser insurance when the kids were little and we lived on the west side of the mountain.  Great when it works but...  It actually worked pretty well for the kids but I've heard complaints similar to yours.  We don't have a choice other than individual insurance now and are forced to buy a very high deductible as even that is nearly over $1500/month.  It pays for the occasional preventative care visit but is essentially just for catastrophic events...ie heart attacks while out of town...  Because of our high deductible we often just chose to pay for things like you're describing out of pocket.  We won't reach our deductible anyway and the provider often gives us a nice discount for cash.  I sure hope that they do something to resolve the situation we're in with health care/health insurance.  Our rates and deductibles have tripled since Obama Care was passed into law.

Take care of yourself...I agree that walking until you feel sharp pain doesn't sound like the best option.  You definitely need to be healthy for your big trip!

HOT here...not the best running weather.

Yeah, our health care system could be much better than it is right now. I have employer-sponsored health care, but a $2,000 deductible on anything significant. Luckily, office visits and PT sessions require only a copay.


Oh what I would give for an affordable plan with a $2000 deductible.  Our individual deductible is $7,150 in net work and $26,200 out of net work!!  The problem is that several specialists in the area are out of net work and we either have to pay the out of net work deductible or travel to Portland.  Neither is a good option.

Waiting 4 weeks would be an unacceptable option as well...I know that didn't make you feel any better...sorry!

If it's any consolation...it's to hot to train anyway.  Stay inside and work on the itinerary for your Hawaii trip.
Hawaii helps everything.
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:32 am

nkrichards wrote:Oh what I would give for an affordable plan with a $2000 deductible.  Our individual deductible is $7,150 in net work and $26,200 out of net work!!  The problem is that several specialists in the area are out of net work and we either have to pay the out of net work deductible or travel to Portland.  Neither is a good option.

Waiting 4 weeks would be an unacceptable option as well...I know that didn't make you feel any better...sorry!

If it's any consolation...it's to hot to train anyway.  Stay inside and work on the itinerary for your Hawaii trip.

Oh, I'm so sorry. One thing that's painfully obvious with the insurance exchanges is that people who 1) are self-employed and 2) live in rural areas are getting the short end of the stick. To be both? Ugh. There are solutions to the situation, but I don't think there's enough political courage yet to make it happen.

I asked to be put on a call-back list in case of cancellations, so who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky. Or there'll be a bored PT hanging around the finish line area at the MH 50K tomorrow and they'll do some poking and prodding. Either way, I know that time is helping it heal, though not nearly as fast as I'd like.

We are getting pretty excited about Hawaii. We've booked excursions for snorkeling, horseback riding and exploring Polynesian culture. We're also planning on visiting Pearl Harbor, a palace of the last Hawaiian monarch and a Buddhist temple seen on "Magnum PI" - and doing some hiking, too. I can't wait!


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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:33 am

ounce wrote:Hawaii helps everything.

We shall see!

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  nkrichards on Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:06 am

Almost forgot that the race was this weekend.  How did the volunteering go?  I imagine it was tough being there and not running...  It would have been a warm one.

Is Alec accompanying you to Hawaii or is this a couples only trip?  I think you'll really enjoy the Pearl Harbor memorial...Marty and I did.  And what could be better than snorkeling in Hawaii!  We found a couple great places to snorkel and also rented a kayak one day.  Make sure you stop at the trailers along the road for some excellent seafood.  And I assume you'll be having Loco Moco and also Malasadas at least once...you're on vacation...you can't eat healthy every day!  We were there on a business trip so had to stay at a flash place in Waikiki...totally out of our comfort zone...but we asked the valet for suggestions and headed out to the restaurants and beaches that the locals preferred.  Not sure it's a place I'd want to go back to but I'm glad I got the opportunity to go once!

Update on the injury status?
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Re: Trails for Two

Post  Mark B on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:53 pm

nkrichards wrote:Almost forgot that the race was this weekend.  How did the volunteering go?  I imagine it was tough being there and not running...  It would have been a warm one.

Is Alec accompanying you to Hawaii or is this a couples only trip?  I think you'll really enjoy the Pearl Harbor memorial...Marty and I did.  And what could be better than snorkeling in Hawaii!  We found a couple great places to snorkel and also rented a kayak one day.  Make sure you stop at the trailers along the road for some excellent seafood.  And I assume you'll be having Loco Moco and also Malasadas at least once...you're on vacation...you can't eat healthy every day!  We were there on a business trip so had to stay at a flash place in Waikiki...totally out of our comfort zone...but we asked the valet for suggestions and headed out to the restaurants and beaches that the locals preferred.  Not sure it's a place I'd want to go back to but I'm glad I got the opportunity to go once!

Update on the injury status?

Hi, Nancy! Volunteering went well. It was a beautiful day, the runners were enthusiastic and the race directors were happy to have us there. Alita handled the merchandise table, and I did the timing, recording all the finishing times and sorting out all the age group winners. It required some concentration and visual acuity to read the numbers as they came in and get them recorded at the right moment.

A few photos of the scene...



A meadow and stream near the start and finish area. 



I could get used to this.



VERY used to this.




Here I am in the timing tent. The timing device was an iPad, which made it ridiculously easy -- if you could read the number of the incoming runner and find the number on the iPad before they crossed through the finish arch. I did pretty well at it, but it required some concentration -- especially when multiple runners were coming through at the same time.  Shocked




Alita at the merchandise tent. The RD told her if she managed to sell everything, they'd give us free race entries for life. We briefly considered whipping out the credit card and buying everything, but decided it might not pencil out. Wink




The timing device and rehydrating beverage. At this point, the lion's share of the field had finished.




Obligatory artsy photo. Smile


I was fine with dropping, and I didn't feel many pangs of regret. It's too bad I got hurt, but it was a freak accident. Can't do anything about it. What I regret more is being unable to run at all.

Alita and I went for a little walk, and I broke into an easy jog for the first time since Elijah Bristow. I could feel the injury enough to know that doing the race would have been beyond foolhardy. Even with that small stimulus and standing in my feet all day (and a few semi squats), the injury area is pretty grumpy today. Still no cancellations at the PT place, so I remain in the dark.

Yes, Alec is joining us, as are his cousins. He's looking forward to that as much as any other part of the trip. He's not big on sun and heat. But he should do fine.

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Re: Trails for Two

Post  ounce on Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:57 pm

Mark B wrote:
nkrichards wrote:Oh what I would give for an affordable plan with a $2000 deductible.  Our individual deductible is $7,150 in net work and $26,200 out of net work!!  The problem is that several specialists in the area are out of net work and we either have to pay the out of net work deductible or travel to Portland.  Neither is a good option.

Waiting 4 weeks would be an unacceptable option as well...I know that didn't make you feel any better...sorry!

If it's any consolation...it's to hot to train anyway.  Stay inside and work on the itinerary for your Hawaii trip.

Oh, I'm so sorry. One thing that's painfully obvious with the insurance exchanges is that people who 1) are self-employed and 2) live in rural areas are getting the short end of the stick. To be both? Ugh. There are solutions to the situation, but I don't think there's enough political courage yet to make it happen.

I asked to be put on a call-back list in case of cancellations, so who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky. Or there'll be a bored PT hanging around the finish line area at the MH 50K tomorrow and they'll do some poking and prodding. Either way, I know that time is helping it heal, though not nearly as fast as I'd like.

We are getting pretty excited about Hawaii. We've booked excursions for snorkeling, horseback riding and exploring Polynesian culture. We're also planning on visiting Pearl Harbor, a palace of the last Hawaiian monarch and a Buddhist temple seen on "Magnum PI" - and doing some hiking, too. I can't wait!

While Alec will be in the room playing games and watching television.

I hope you told him that everything y'all will see will have a running distance attached to it! Suspect
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