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Uphill climb part 2

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:49 pm

@Randy E wrote:Nothing would make me happier than to see you get better and better and remain injury free in the process. You have a lot of talent and I hope Dave brings that out of you.
Thanks Randy. I'm trying...

@Peg Coover wrote:John, so sorry to read that you are experiencing leg pain. There is nothing more frustrating than having to go through that, especially trying to figure out what the injury is and how to rehab it. The great thing about this place is the friendship--we can always count on each other for support, advice, and even a shoulder to cry on! Hang in there!
Thanks Peg. Seems like this is going to be a long slow process. One day at a time!

I've been trying to recovery from a hip flexor strain - nasty feeling thing that I hope nobody experiences!


Trying to slowly get back into the swing of things. Have done most of my workouts on the elliptical, but have missed 2 long runs in the last two weeks. At least mentally I'm glad I had a couple of long runs before formal training to lean on and hopefully I can get back to "normal" or close to it soon. In the meantime I have no choice but to try and be a little conservative with training, especially speed work.

Training for the week:
Monday: ran 6 @ 8:36 pace. Leg felt a little dinged, but not too bad

Tuesday: ran 6 @ 8:38 pace. Ditto on leg. Ran my second recovery run on an elliptical - 4 easy miles.

Wednesday: Was supposed to be a 12 mile run with 6 at tempo. On Doctors orders to not run for a few more days and not push anything running until the pain subsides, I did a hard 12 on the elliptical. BORING.

Thursday: 8 easy miles on the elliptical. BORING.

Friday: 10 hard(ish) miles on the elliptical. BORING.

Saturday: Rode 54 miles at 20.3 mph. Legs felt a little more tired afterwards - more tired than they should have. Cycling fitness has taken a toll, but I have time to work on it after a couple more months.

Sunday: Big test. Went on a "real run" for the first time since 2 Fridays ago.

Ran my 14 today at a 7:44 pace. Leg was sore as usual for the start,
felt better after a few miles, felt a little better half way in, and
then felt better yet after about 11 miles. A little sore now after the
run, but I am going to baby it the rest of the day. The real test I
think will be what it feels like tomorrow morning.

Overall I am
encouraged, but might mix in a few elliptical days to ease back into
all running. Running felt a little harder today than it should have,
but I'm not surprised as it is my longest run in almost 3 weeks.

Yesterday did a pretty good 54
mile ride at 20.3 mph (that effort is sort of like a marathon pace
effort), so I am happy with the way the weekend worked out.
Splits from today's run were: 8:53, 8:26, 7:48, 7:49, 7:52, 7:56, 7:59, 7:41, 7:40, 7:26, 7:32, 7:23, 7:10 and 6:52.

Just for fun on what really crappy running form looks like, here is a picture from my last 15K...

[img][/img]

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Chris M on Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:12 pm

Sorry to hear you've been battling the injury bug. Take it easy and don't go crazy on the speed work until you know it is 100% behind you. You will probably be able to log mileage for awhile without aggrivating it but some blow-out repeats would surely tweak it.

That's not a bad picture. You look like you are rolling along well. My arm carriage gets high like yours when I'm going fast or I'm tired and I'm always trying to work on bringing them down. I got embarassed today when I flipped through the DC running magazine and my picture is in there. Not from some fast race I did or for winning any kind of award. No, that would be great. Instead, my first picture in the magazine was from Haloween when our family dressed up in costume for a themed 5K. Geesh. I at least wish I had been going all out if that was going to be my one and only picture to make the magazine.

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Mike MacLellan on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:13 am

Nice massive heelstrike. And relax those shoulders, bud! Wink
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Julie on Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:11 pm

I always tense up my shoulders at the end of a race. I hope you're continuing to heal well and getting excited for your marathon.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  JohnP on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:38 pm

John, hope your hip heals up pretty soon, I know it's very frustrating to not be able to train or train as hard as you want. Hip pain is really hard to understand, I think. For me, it's one of those areas that hurts well after a run, not during a run much. I remember putting a heating pad under me on the hip while laying down for a few weeks but I don't know if that helped or not.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:18 pm

@Chris M wrote:Sorry to hear you've been battling the injury bug. Take it easy and don't go crazy on the speed work until you know it is 100% behind you. You will probably be able to log mileage for awhile without aggrivating it but some blow-out repeats would surely tweak it.

That's not a bad picture. You look like you are rolling along well. My arm carriage gets high like yours when I'm going fast or I'm tired and I'm always trying to work on bringing them down.
I think that is a cool picture! When I think about it I try to relax my shoulders, but it is just something that happens sometimes. Sort of like heel striking - I'm always bad, but when I get a little tired, it gets really bad. I am taking it easy on the speedwork by the way - have a tempo run tomorrow, but I'll probably stick more at the slower end of things when I usually like to hit the high end range if I can...

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Nice massive heelstrike. And relax those shoulders, bud! Wink
Yeah I know - what would McDougall say?

@Julie wrote:I always tense up my shoulders at the end of a race. I hope you're continuing to heal well and getting excited for your marathon.
Thanks Julie - I'm getting really excited - I know that 2 months will go by really quickly. I'm getting better too!

@JohnP wrote:John, hope your hip heals up pretty soon, I know it's very frustrating to not be able to train or train as hard as you want. Hip pain is really hard to understand, I think. For me, it's one of those areas that hurts well after a run, not during a run much. I remember putting a heating pad under me on the hip while laying down for a few weeks but I don't know if that helped or not.
Thanks John - I think the elliptical helped me out quite a bit and the hip is definitely on the mend and better than it was.


Some more GREAT news for me - after my 14 yesterday the leg was a little sore, but I babied it all day. Woke up this morning and it felt a LOT better. Was able to actually START a run with the leg feeling good (instead of having to wait for it to loosen a little) and did basically a pain free 8 mile recovery run this morning. Ended up the run pushing it a little at a time just for fun - last 3/4 of a mile was at about a 6:14 pace or so (that felt soooooo good). Rest of run was about 8:30 pace. Felt GREAT. Did a second 4-mile recovery run at about 8:30 pace again this afternoon with no problems. I am going to continue being careful but think I made it over the hump with this thing. Thank God for YMCAs and elliptical machines. I don't know how much it helped my fitness, but kept me from going stir crazy and gaining too much weight over Christmas! Time is marching quickly towards March 3rd, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. My goal is not to just make it to the race, but make it to the race with some sort of at least a hope of a BQ. Here we go!!!

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:51 am

The Hokies out-gained the Wolverines 372-179. They held Denard Robinson to 13 yards on 13 carries, his lowest total as a starter. They held him to 9-for-21 passing, intercepting him once. They held running back Fitzgerald Toussaint to 25 rushing yards. They held Michigan to 4 of 12 on third downs. They had a 36:48 to 23:10 advantage in time of possession. And they lost.

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:06 am

Glad the leg seems to be cooperating, but make sure you take it easy. I'm surprised your first real "run" was 14 miles - as that might have been a bit too much - so just keep listening to your body - it will indeed tell you what you need to do. It took me 49 yrs and 361 days to figure that out, but heck, lst year I ran 2046 miles which might not seem like a lot to some, but for me is/was a major accomplishment considering the most mileage that I ran in the last few years was 1800 miles back in 2002 (I was close to that in 2010). Yes, I have minor tweaks, etc., but I am learning (finally) to remember to take it easy, recover, stretch, massage, etc. Let's hope I can continue and run well this Spring as I'm sure my mileage will suffer in May/June with graduation and the move to Ohio.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:37 pm

Thanks Michele - I'm learning about this thing as I go. Sort of a weird injury in that twice now it has "gotten me". The thing is that it doesn't hurt when I'm running, but only really starts to hurt after I quit. That being said, I'm trying to balance fitness vs. nursing this thing back - feels like I'm riding the fence sometimes.

OK, so I got through Sunday's 14 surprisingly well. Ran an 8 and a 4 mile recovery run on Monday. No problems. Did a tempo run yesterday - felt a little stiff at the beginning of the run, but then felt relatively good after about a mile. Didn't really push the pace real hard on the tempos 12 miler with 2x3 tempo (6:56, 6:48, 6:37 and 6:41, 6:42, 6:43), but felt sore after I came home and took a shower. Sore again this morning, but felt better by this afternoon. Had a 14 miler to do this afternoon and decided to take it to the gym - planned on doing 14 on the elliptical, but tried out a little run on the mill and it felt pretty good. Ran 8 of the 14 at about a 7:53 pace and the leg started to feel a little painful. So, I stopped and jumped on the elliptical and finished the run. Again, I don't know how well those things work for conditioning, but they feel great to "run" on - totally pain free. I am convinced I did the right thing by quitting while I was ahead. I'm also, I think, going to skip tomorrows recovery runs and cross train, either cycle or use the elliptical. All of this is putting me behind the 8 ball with my training and running mileage, but hopefully keeps me somewhat in the game.

Now, what I have to learn is how to predict where the stress point is with this thing. As I've said, the pain doesn't come when I'm running so much as after I stop. How do I gauge that? I guess the best thing is to maybe not be too aggressive and work in more cross training (cycling/elliptical). Based on where I have been with this thing, my guess is that it will be with me for another 3+ weeks at least. Oh, and when I was getting a cycle fit this week, the guy that was working with me noticed that my left leg was shorter than my right - couple that with running a lot of miles on sloped roads and I wonder if that is why my left leg is always the one giving me problems - never had one issue with my right leg yet...

Randy, if you say I told you so I'm going to hunt you down and...well....I guess buy you lunch or something...

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  mul21 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:37 am

Speaking from personal experience, you likely have a minor muscle deficiency somewhere that is causing the muscle that hurts to be overworked. Before this gets worse and truly sidelines you, I would suggest getting in to a physical therapist and figuring out what the underlying problem is. You can do some exercises to start addressing the real issue and that will reduce the stress on the current problem area. Trust me, I've been through a similar situation twice now and I'm betting, with as drastically as your mileage has increased in such a short time period, that you're probably experiencing something similar. And, as they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Get on this before you end up not running for 2 months like I just did.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:34 am

@John Kilpatrick wrote:I am convinced I did the right thing by quitting while I was ahead. I'm also, I think, going to skip tomorrows recovery runs and cross train, either cycle or use the elliptical.

Now, what I have to learn is how to predict where the stress point is with this thing. As I've said, the pain doesn't come when I'm running so much as after I stop. How do I gauge that? I guess the best thing is to maybe not be too aggressive and work in more cross training (cycling/elliptical).

Listen to yourself here. While maximum running days/miles on the road/mill are the best for marathon training, it really won't hurt much to do a sizable portion of your recovery runs on the elliptical, in my opinion. The bike is also good, but the elliptical is a better approximation of running.

It's going to be tough figuring out when to quit, but definitely at the sign of any discomfort, in my opinion. If you haven't started using those funky adductor/abductor machines yet, I'm going to smack you. Seriously, they help. And do a lot of stretching, if you're not already.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:30 pm

@mul21 wrote:Speaking from personal experience, you likely have a minor muscle deficiency somewhere that is causing the muscle that hurts to be overworked. Before this gets worse and truly sidelines you, I would suggest getting in to a physical therapist and figuring out what the underlying problem is. You can do some exercises to start addressing the real issue and that will reduce the stress on the current problem area. Trust me, I've been through a similar situation twice now and I'm betting, with as drastically as your mileage has increased in such a short time period, that you're probably experiencing something similar. And, as they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Get on this before you end up not running for 2 months like I just did.
I know you went through similar stuff - I am still waiting to see a PT, but will at first opportunity. I understand that I need to do some exercises and had started doing some minor stuff before it got sore again. I tried to follow the Docs advice and not run again until it was basically pain free, which it was. Then, bang and I'm moving backwards (not as bad as it was, but in pain again). Work in progress here...
Thanks for the input and I'm all ears as you have been there. Did it sneak up on you the same way as me? And, how did you know when you were ready to get back to it? And, what were your most effective exercises (lots of stuff on the web, but you never know what you are really getting there).

@Mike MacLellan wrote:Listen to yourself here. While maximum running days/miles on the road/mill are the best for marathon training, it really won't hurt much to do a sizable portion of your recovery runs on the elliptical, in my opinion. The bike is also good, but the elliptical is a better approximation of running.

It's going to be tough figuring out when to quit, but definitely at the sign of any discomfort, in my opinion. If you haven't started using those funky adductor/abductor machines yet, I'm going to smack you. Seriously, they help. And do a lot of stretching, if you're not already.

Thanks Mike - for no other reason than I don't make it to the gym very often, I haven't used the machine yet. Not that I'm opposed to it, but in order to stick with something regularly, I probably need to find a routine that I can do at home with no equipment. But, in the meantime I will be at the gym cross training on an elliptical, so I will certainly give it a try. It is sore right now, so I'll be careful to be really easy with it. You bring up an interesting point - there is a difference between pain and discomfort - I figure I need to stop at the pain level, but maybe I should lower the threshold to discomfort (well, running hard is uncomfortable to begin with!), but I understand your point. I have started to consciously stretch more now, so maybe that will be a good thing too...

More boring time in the elliptical is the prescription for a little while I guess. I have a 20 this weekend that I might have to do on one. That would be fun. Not.

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Schuey on Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:55 pm

Here is my quick advice go get that left leg checked out to see if it is shorter than your right one. I only say that because I have the same issue of my left leg being shorter.

So before going to a PT and doing exercises go find out what is causing the issue. If the leg is shorter than the other like it is in my case the fix could be as simple as a heel lift in your left shoe. The important thing is finding out what actually difference between the two legs are if that is the case.

I had always known that my left leg was shorter than my right but I was using a 1/4 lift which was fine until I started running over a 100 miles a week which started having issues creep up on my right side that I had never had. Why? Due to my right leg now being shorter than my left. Once my doctor got it right with a 1/8 inch my issues on the right side have been clearing up and almost completely done.

So my humble advice would be before doing anything with a PT go see a doctor and get to the root of the issue first, so than you know what course of action you should take. Until the root of the problem is found out you will just be hitting your head against a wall with this issue, if you don't get lucky with a PT finding the cause by accident.

Again I would start with telling your doctor that you feel your left leg might be shorter than the right. It is a common and easy issue to fix.

Just my 2 cents worth advice, take it as you will. Hope you are able to find that balance, happiness and peacefulness in your training and running.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Alex Kubacki on Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:35 pm

@John Kilpatrick wrote:The Hokies out-gained the Wolverines 372-179. They held Denard Robinson to 13 yards on 13 carries, his lowest total as a starter. They held him to 9-for-21 passing, intercepting him once. They held running back Fitzgerald Toussaint to 25 rushing yards. They held Michigan to 4 of 12 on third downs. They had a 36:48 to 23:10 advantage in time of possession. And they lost.

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John I'm a huge Michigan fan. I did think that Coale's TD should have held up. There was not enough to overturn it. I do think the difference in the game though was that while Michigan couldn't stop VT on 3rd down EVER it seemed like, they were keeping them out of the endzone and forcing FG's.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:30 pm

Great advice Martin - I will follow up on that. When I saw a Doc about this issue he didn't ask about anything like that - I wouldn't of known one was shorter anyway when I saw him, but that may be something to do with it. I will say that every single leg issue that I have ever had is always on the same side...

Your right of course, Alex - I even like Michigan and have no problem with the way they played. If they weren't playing my alma mater, I would of been happy for them and their win. I also really like Brady Hoke, who also went to the school where I did my undergrad (Ball State). I have just seen the Hokies go through this too many times. The kids played hard - I am just appalled by the play-calling, especially a fake punt when they tried it. I mean, who calls a time out (basically tipping the other team off) and then tries a fake punt direct snap to the punter who is 14 yards behind the 1st down marker. If you saw the play, then you saw that Michigan was in punt safe mode, not trying to even block for the return and were totally ready for the play. This is after VT offense was playing very well and Michigan had somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 yards to that point and VT has never even tried a rugby style punt before. Couple that with the 3rd and 17 hail mary off the back foot that the VT safety whiffed on and took out the cornerback in the process (MI touchdown), going for it on 4th down early in the game, an inexplicable 25 yard loss on 1st and goal by the running back, letting a kid with a torn ACL who is scheduled for surgery after the season return a kick (you know, the guy that fumbled the ball), somehow missing an easy interception on a failed fake field goal by Michigan where the two Hokies collided and bounced the ball in the air directly to a Michigan lineman, running two plays in overtime that haven't worked all game, putting them in ANOTHER 3rd and long despite the fact that they were moving the ball very well through the air and David Wilson was having some success running to the outside. Also, in the red zone, for some unknown reason, they chose to run the read option when Thomas was throwing the ball extremely well and VT is not an option team. Add it all together, and you have yet another embarrassing loss. But, I still love the Maroon and Orange and think Beamer is awesome. I can't really explain it, but it is what it is....

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:08 pm

One other kind of weird thing to consider but one that gets me all the time is: hydration. Yes, I know that seems weird, but my right hammie will bother me often after a run because I am not re-hydrated! I had terrible issues before Twin Cities back in 2007 and thought I'd never run 26.2 miles. The week before the marathon I hydrated as normal, and it never bothered me during the race or after. Now, I also find that it can be the case.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:32 am

That is weird Michele, but at this point I'm not ruling anything out and will keep that in mind. Back to the gym today for another fun filled 12 miles on the modern torture device also known as an elliptical trainer.

I'm not one to be mean to people and I actually feel sorry for this guy, but , well, you just have to see this coaching job at the Nose...I mean Rose bowl. I know kids are mean, so this will not quickly be forgotten about by the Badgers...


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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:33 pm

Good news is that I got 78 miles in on my feet this week plus 90 miles cycling (20 mph). Bad news is that of that 78, only 32 of them were actually running, with 46 of them on the elliptical. My leg continues to feel better but the scary thing for me is that it felt better last time when I ran and ended up hurt again (hip flexor). I don't know when to get back into running - and when I do, how much and at what speeds? Based on last time I guess I should take another week off from actually running? And then maybe run every other day? Have a PT appointment on Tuesday and am going to ask about alignment/shorter leg and if that impacts me. As of now, I'm 7 weeks and 6 days out from the marathon. Can I make it? As of now, I don't know.

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:52 pm

Err on the side of caution. Give the leg 3-5 days to feel good and then start back easy with walk breaks i.e. walk 2-3 min, run 2-3 min, etc. If it continues to feel good, up the running time. Just do not go out and kill it.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Mike MacLellan on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:23 pm

You can make it. Don't rush it.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:07 pm

Had a meeting last night that I had to present some data for so I only did 7 miles on the elliptical, with 2x20 minutes at tempo intensity. Stuck my HR at about 167-170 - good hard workout that felt good.

Finally got to see a PT today about my hip. Learned a couple of things - one is I got an insert for my right foot b/c it is a little shorter (thanks Schuey for the heads up there) - that may help me in the future. Second is I got some stretches to do (had already been doing some of them - no help now, but may help injury prevention in the future. Third is I should basically not run for 2 weeks and then start really slowly after that. When directly asked, the answer to the marathon is not likely, especially if you are running for a time. I'm not totally giving up, but it feels like a punch in the gut right now.

Makes me want to punch something. Dad-Gummit.

In the meantime, Dave has been helping me out - I have learned a LOT about training and feel like I have made great strides. Can't help but feel like a schmuck for being in this position and essentially wasting peoples time and efforts. Everybody that said do this or do that I could of listened better. Should of done more strength training. Should of done more stretching.

Really just want to crawl in a cave right now. Dad-Gummit.

Had a long talk yesterday with a friend (Thanks Michele!!!!!!!!!) who
gave some excellent insight into how to come back from this. Live to
fight another day I guess. At least now I have an idea of what it might
take TO come back and a plan of attack when the time is right. I don't know how much she realized that she helped, but I really appreciated it - lot of wisdom and lot of support!

I really really wanted this marathon and I really won't have a chance at it again until next year I guess, but there will be another day. Like I said, I'm not totally giving up on the marathon this year, but it is looking about as good as the Cardinals chance of winning the World Series in late August. Then again.....

If nothing else, I still have to think about getting completely healthy before a push towards the November ironman.....

Life is interesting sometimes. Kory went through something real (not some pididdly crap like what I'm going through) and he has a great attitude. So there - John, keep your chin up and quit whining.

OK, I'm done now. Needed to vent a little and now get back to work....

Thanks 365ers. I'm glad you guys are here....

John Kilpatrick
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  John Kilpatrick on Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:51 pm

Can't run but still had a good workout today - 20 minutes medium-hard on the elliptical, 45 minutes hard spin class, 35 minutes hard elliptical. Legs tired now! Felt good to push it hard tonight...

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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Mark B on Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:22 pm

As far as I'm concerned, this is a great day for you, John.

Why? Because you learned something extremely important: The root of some of the problems you've been having (leg length discrepancy) and have already started the process that will allow you to continue to train, race and improve for years to come. Nothing you could have done before today could have compensated for that. Now you know, you can train wisely - and far more effectively.

So don't kid yourself: This is a victory. Build on it, learn from it. You will come back stronger (and faster).

cheers cheers bounce Very Happy bounce cheers cheers
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  jon c on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:08 pm

John, haven't stopped in for awhile so I have caught up a bit on your situation. Glad you got the leg length issue looked at. Balance is so important with the amount of stress we put on our bodies.

Another issue to consider might be the heel strike issue that the pic so clearly indicates. I'm not an animal on this, however if a person can work on turning this into a mid foot strike, it will greatly lessen the shock stress on your joints.

One other thing you might consider is to take a couple tenths of a mile and run backwards each run (outdoors anyway). It may sound strange and you might get some looks from folks, but working the muscles in a different or opposing way reminds the body that the other muscles can contract and not remain passive all the time.

Sounds like you have gotten a lot of sound advice from the folks here. Hope this resolves in short order. You will live to fight another day.

Edit to add: Know this won't make you feel any better but I was glad to see that Nebraska wasn't the only team in the bowl season that couldn't get out of it's own way.
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:02 pm

@John Kilpatrick wrote:

In the meantime, Dave has been helping me out - I have learned a LOT about training and feel like I have made great strides. Can't help but feel like a schmuck for being in this position and essentially wasting peoples time and efforts.

I hope this isn't directed at me, because I don't feel that any of my time was wasted. You were making great progress and absolutely crushing training. Injuries happen. My hip gave out last year and I still don't know why.

I wish I could help more in your rehab, but that's definitely not an area I am very knowledgeable about. I know you're busting your butt to get healthy again!
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Re: Uphill climb part 2

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