Intervals on a Decline

Tomorrow I'm going to be doing a 3 x 2M workout. I'm likely to be on a treadmill due to a potential storm. I'm thinking of doing one of the three with it on a decline for Boston.  Now I've done 2M straight decline at MP, but not that far on a decline at a tempo pace.  Is that too fast a pace for that long at a decline?  What do you think?  Thanks.

I vote no. Way too much potential for injury running downhill that fast for that long, especially on a treadmill.

I agree with Jim.  Lots of risk there.

I disagree, I think that it would be a great workout and it's only two miles. Where you will want to be more cautious is in the workout the next day. You will most like have some soreness in your butt and quads from this workout. 

The reason I say this will be fine is that mostly like the treadmill you will be on will only have a decline of -3 max. I would say it would be a different story if you were running much further then 2 miles and doing it at a greater decline. Over this training cycle I have built myself up doing over time doing these workouts on decline. I actually do a lot of runs to where i'm doing 9 miles or more with the whole run at decline from -1 to -6. 

To be honest the whole key to Boston in my opinion is all about downhill running. If you are not prepared or ready there is no doubt no matter how slow or well you run the first 16 miles of the race you will pay the last 10 miles of the race. With that you will no doubt see your finish time slow down.

Now the only thing that I would add to this is that with it being so late in the training cycle would you really benefit from this type of workout? If you haven't been doing much downhill running then I would think differently about this run but if you have been doing it then this run is not going to hurt you but only benefit you.

mul21 wrote:I vote no.  Way too much potential for injury running downhill that fast for that long, especially on a treadmill.

This.

Risk >> Reward

Schuey wrote:I disagree, I think that it would be a great workout and it's only two miles. Where you will want to be more cautious is in the workout the next day. You will most like have some soreness in your butt and quads from this workout. 

The reason I say this will be fine is that mostly like the treadmill you will be on will only have a decline of -3 max. I would say it would be a different story if you were running much further then 2 miles and doing it at a greater decline. Over this training cycle I have built myself up doing over time doing these workouts on decline. I actually do a lot of runs to where i'm doing 9 miles or more with the whole run at decline from -1 to -6. 

To be honest the whole key to Boston in my opinion is all about downhill running. If you are not prepared or ready there is no doubt no matter how slow or well you run the first 16 miles of the race you will pay the last 10 miles of the race. With that you will no doubt see your finish time slow down.

Now the only thing that I would add to this is that with it being so late in the training cycle would you really benefit from this type of workout? If you haven't been doing much downhill running then I would think differently about this run but if you have been doing it then this run is not going to hurt you but only benefit you.

Keep in mind you're talking to a guy you didn't get to meet at the JFK50 last fall because he DNSed because of an injury.

mul21 wrote:

Schuey wrote:I disagree, I think that it would be a great workout and it's only two miles. Where you will want to be more cautious is in the workout the next day. You will most like have some soreness in your butt and quads from this workout. 

The reason I say this will be fine is that mostly like the treadmill you will be on will only have a decline of -3 max. I would say it would be a different story if you were running much further then 2 miles and doing it at a greater decline. Over this training cycle I have built myself up doing over time doing these workouts on decline. I actually do a lot of runs to where i'm doing 9 miles or more with the whole run at decline from -1 to -6. 

To be honest the whole key to Boston in my opinion is all about downhill running. If you are not prepared or ready there is no doubt no matter how slow or well you run the first 16 miles of the race you will pay the last 10 miles of the race. With that you will no doubt see your finish time slow down.

Now the only thing that I would add to this is that with it being so late in the training cycle would you really benefit from this type of workout? If you haven't been doing much downhill running then I would think differently about this run but if you have been doing it then this run is not going to hurt you but only benefit you.

Keep in mind you're talking to a guy you didn't get to meet at the JFK50 last fall because he DNSed because of an injury.

 

Like said at the end if you haven't been training on downhills up to this point the workout wouldn't be worth it. If someone has been training all winter for Boston and doing runs on incline/decline trust me they would be fine running 2 miles at a -1 to -3 decline. If you haven't been training on downhills and the body isn't use to it sure there could be some risk but I from my experience the risk is still low at running on a -1 to -3 decline. Then again what do I know, Alex bottom line is that you and only you know how your training has been going and what you have been doing. You know your body better then any of us.

So my advice would be to do what you think would be best for you and not what others think.

Whatever, really sick of TM now.

Alex - you know your body best. If you've been running and you've played with flat and downhill, what's wrong with pushing it a little? If at any point you feel something is not right, well then, you know you're limit.

I don't run on a treadmill so my opinion is . . . not worth the cyberspace its written in, but it's pretty close to race day to be trying new workouts.  So run within your limits.

Thanks everyone. I ended up not doing a full 2M at decline but rather a few minutes in each of the three repeats. Then the last 2M of my cooldown I ran at -2. No issues. I've been doing some fast running downhill and long stretches downhill, just not combined. I don't know if I've been doing enough but I'm going to find out one way or the other in three weeks.

Hopefully you've been running some decent amount of downhills at MP since you will be doing that on Patriots day. At this point though, if you haven't, you may regret it as you descend to finish in Beantown.

fostever wrote:Hopefully you've been running some decent amount of downhills at MP since you will be doing that on Patriots day. At this point though, if you haven't, you may regret it as you descend to finish in Beantown.

They don't call it the graveyard for nothing on the downhill heading to Boston College for nothing! Boston is all about being prepared for all the downhill running. You'll know if you prepared right for Boston on those last 6 miles.

fostever wrote:Hopefully you've been running some decent amount of downhills at MP since you will be doing that on Patriots day. At this point though, if you haven't, you may regret it as you descend to finish in Beantown.

Schuey wrote:

fostever wrote:Hopefully you've been running some decent amount of downhills at MP since you will be doing that on Patriots day. At this point though, if you haven't, you may regret it as you descend to finish in Beantown.

They don't call it the graveyard for nothing on the downhill heading to Boston College for nothing! Boston is all about being prepared for all the downhill running. You'll know if you prepared right for Boston on those last 6 miles.

You two are really thoughtful to Jerry ...

If your truly concerned about running 2M at Tempo Pace, at -1~-3% grade on a soft treadmill, you should be very concerned about lining up in Hopkinton.

Surprisingly, with all the fear mongering about Downhill running...
Trackwork actually produces significantly higher bone stress (tibia), where as downhill running produces slightly more stress than jogging, and uphill running produces significantly less.

That said, running downhill at 15% will increase PEAK Impact forces by ~55%.

The largest issue is rate of muscle damage running downhill does not track with normal fatigue levels.  So when running downhill, you will damage your muscles faster than you will fatigue them.  This is, one of the reason I shake my head when some tells me "you should always aim to even split a downhill course."

Gobbles wrote:If your truly concerned about running 2M at Tempo Pace, at -1~-3% grade on a soft treadmill, you should be very concerned about lining up in Hopkinton.

I wasn't concerned, I was just asking about attempting something I hadn't done before with it being 3.5 weeks out. I've done downhill short sprints, 1min downhill picksups at 3K pace, 2M at marathon pace, but I hadn't done 2M tempo downhill. I'm definitely not concerned about toeing the line in Hopkinton. The legs either will or will not hold up when I'm out there.

Alex Kubacki wrote:

Gobbles wrote:If your truly concerned about running 2M at Tempo Pace, at -1~-3% grade on a soft treadmill, you should be very concerned about lining up in Hopkinton.

I wasn't concerned, I was just asking about attempting something I hadn't done before with it being 3.5 weeks out. I've done downhill short sprints, 1min downhill picksups at 3K pace, 2M at marathon pace, but I hadn't done 2M tempo downhill. I'm definitely not concerned about toeing the line in Hopkinton. The legs either will or will not hold up when I'm out there.

I don't care. Racing is all about mind, not legs.

Alex, I really was stating that to you. I meant it to be a bit more general.
The risk of running downhill at realtively low grades is often exaggerated. Key word is low or moderate, as I stated earlier, a 15% grade does produce a significant increase in peak stresses.
That said, the studies I've seen show that subjectively DOMS is less after training for a downhill race, but the strength measures don't seem to be affected. Meaning those training with downhill running are subject to the same performance loss, often lasting days, but subjectively (mentally?) don't feel as much DOMS. Granted, the studies that I read didn't extend even close to the marathon distance.

That said, I'm not sure what you would really gain at this point. One workout really doesn't make a whole lot of difference.