Training with Flies

ounce wrote:

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:Well, Nancy, that's probably the best logical reason for not getting the shot(s) that I've heard.  

-30-

The addendum to the 3 guys in the parking lot on Monday's failed attempt was there was zero broken glass anywhere in the parking lots.  So maybe, they were just peering and looking for unlocked cars and didn't break in to any of the cars.

-30-

So Thursday, I ran a 5 mile progression run where I started at 154 spm and bumped it up 2 per mile up to the end of mile 3.  Then bumped it 3 spm for miles 4 and 5.  The last mile was at 164 spm.  I feel like I am starting to lose some ground on meeting the target marathon pace.  Ergo I need to work on bumping and changing things.  The body is acclimated to the pounding, so I just need to nudge it a little harder, I believe.

There's not a whole lot of difference in the overall pace of the 19 mile run (16:33) and the 12 (16:16).  For both runs, the bleeding was the last 3 miles.  Yesterday's 5 mile run was an average of 14:53.

I think I'll run Monday another 19 miles at a faster cadence.  I'd like to be able to increase the miles, but I just think I need to become faster, first.

Have to do something.  I am please that I'm up to 19 in early October, though.

I tend to agree that 19 miles at a slightly faster cadence might be a better option than trying to increase the miles and struggling to finish.  You still have time to add miles.

I do like the shorter faster cadence...and resulting faster pace runs.  I think they'll help to get you closer to your desired marathon pace.

Have you ever tried a run/walk routine?  I've never tried it...and I'm not recommending it...but I know some people swear that they are faster overall as their run sections are significantly faster.  I think I would struggle to switch back to a decent run pace after walking.  

Hope the temperature is conducive to a good run on Monday.  In the meantime I hope you enjoy your weekend.

I had thought about doing run/walk back in 2007 or so.  During the '07 Houston, I was running with (sorta) a couple doing run/walk.  I asked them what run pace do y'all have to generate to finish before the 6 hour mark.  They said a 12 minute mile will get them a 5:45 time.  So, that's the reason I didn't do it.  Didn't seem like I'd be getting enough juice for the squeeze.  I, too, think the switch back would be difficult, especially in the last 6 miles.

-30-

Last week, I made an appointment with a podiatrist to check out my right 2nd toe's swelling and at the base.  It doesn't hurt at all, but I notice it mostly after a run and during the day after a run.  I'll ice it, if I think I can sit for 30 minutes.  I can't bend that toe nearly as far as the left's 2nd toe.  Since there's no stabbing pain, this is more of a baseline generating visit and see what his thoughts are for later.  AND since I'm not in constant pain, the appointment is the 25th, not this week.

Okay, so much for the housekeeping.

-30-

Yesterday, Nancy, as I was pondering about this morning's long run your first sentence made me think about executing the 19 differently.  And if I could figure out where I should park the car, I was going to run the long run only at Memorial Park.  For the reasons of I have a reduced opportunity to fall, I won't have to worry about cards, and if I peter out early, I have to walk no more than 2 miles to get to the car.

So, I started running a planned 19 miles at just before 1 a.m. at Memorial Park.  I had 3 goals for the run.  To run at a faster cadence for a long run, to run at a faster pace, and to finish all 19.  I accomplished the first two.

The weather was 72 degrees with a dew point of 64.  It didn't feel warm, but my body would convince me that it was.  I didn't sweat profusely as a 65 year old in August, but I was sweating quite extensively.  That was the main reason why I ran 15, instead of 19.  Up to mile 12, I was thinking 20 miles.  But mile 12 started seeing me weaving and wobbling some, then much more during the last mile.  The sweat was also causing me to stop more frequently.

I was hitting 155 or even 156 throughout the whole run, according to Garmin, and clocking 14 & 15 minutes a mile, no 16s.  Last Monday's 12, I only did 3 155/156 and ZERO 14's, but 2 15's.  Plus to add a further insult to last Monday's run, the dew point was 55 degrees, not 64, today.

I made the internal decision to run faster and hold the cadence, this morning.  I wanted to see if I could do it.  So, while I don't think I am out of the woods of slow, plodding times, I now know I can run faster with a consistently higher cadence.  I found a screen on my watch that gave me instant pace and distance.  That instant pace was the motivation of the faster splits.

The comfort of running loops (and not running TO the loop or FROM the loop home) gave me the freedom to push the body.

Today's run was 15 miles at 15:02 pace at a 127 bpm avg.  HR stayed above 130 from around mile 8 to the end.  The hammock was empty!!!!!!  And I was still gettin' it.  3 hours, 51 minutes.  A 15 minute pace under sweaty conditions.  Last week's 12 with drier conditions was 16:16 pace at 117 avg bpm.

It's a turning point.  Not quite sure if I'm on the 'fast' track, but I have a positive experience.  And one on which to build.

Another benefit to doing loops was I didn't have to plod home 3 miles.  I stopped at 15 and gingerly walked to my car, weaving some.  I could've done one more loop as a plod, but I didn't need to do that.

Thanks for reading.

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:Well, Nancy, that's probably the best logical reason for not getting the shot(s) that I've heard.  

-30-

The addendum to the 3 guys in the parking lot on Monday's failed attempt was there was zero broken glass anywhere in the parking lots.  So maybe, they were just peering and looking for unlocked cars and didn't break in to any of the cars.

-30-

So Thursday, I ran a 5 mile progression run where I started at 154 spm and bumped it up 2 per mile up to the end of mile 3.  Then bumped it 3 spm for miles 4 and 5.  The last mile was at 164 spm.  I feel like I am starting to lose some ground on meeting the target marathon pace.  Ergo I need to work on bumping and changing things.  The body is acclimated to the pounding, so I just need to nudge it a little harder, I believe.

There's not a whole lot of difference in the overall pace of the 19 mile run (16:33) and the 12 (16:16).  For both runs, the bleeding was the last 3 miles.  Yesterday's 5 mile run was an average of 14:53.

I think I'll run Monday another 19 miles at a faster cadence.  I'd like to be able to increase the miles, but I just think I need to become faster, first.

Have to do something.  I am please that I'm up to 19 in early October, though.

I tend to agree that 19 miles at a slightly faster cadence might be a better option than trying to increase the miles and struggling to finish.  You still have time to add miles.

I do like the shorter faster cadence...and resulting faster pace runs.  I think they'll help to get you closer to your desired marathon pace.

Have you ever tried a run/walk routine?  I've never tried it...and I'm not recommending it...but I know some people swear that they are faster overall as their run sections are significantly faster.  I think I would struggle to switch back to a decent run pace after walking.  

Hope the temperature is conducive to a good run on Monday.  In the meantime I hope you enjoy your weekend.

I had thought about doing run/walk back in 2007 or so.  During the '07 Houston, I was running with (sorta) a couple doing run/walk.  I asked them what run pace do y'all have to generate to finish before the 6 hour mark.  They said a 12 minute mile will get them a 5:45 time.  So, that's the reason I didn't do it.  Didn't seem like I'd be getting enough juice for the squeeze.  I, too, think the switch back would be difficult, especially in the last 6 miles.

-30-

Last week, I made an appointment with a podiatrist to check out my right 2nd toe's swelling and at the base.  It doesn't hurt at all, but I notice it mostly after a run and during the day after a run.  I'll ice it, if I think I can sit for 30 minutes.  I can't bend that toe nearly as far as the left's 2nd toe.  Since there's no stabbing pain, this is more of a baseline generating visit and see what his thoughts are for later.  AND since I'm not in constant pain, the appointment is the 25th, not this week.

Okay, so much for the housekeeping.

-30-

Yesterday, Nancy, as I was pondering about this morning's long run your first sentence made me think about executing the 19 differently.  And if I could figure out where I should park the car, I was going to run the long run only at Memorial Park.  For the reasons of I have a reduced opportunity to fall, I won't have to worry about cards, and if I peter out early, I have to walk no more than 2 miles to get to the car.

So, I started running a planned 19 miles at just before 1 a.m. at Memorial Park.  I had 3 goals for the run.  To run at a faster cadence for a long run, to run at a faster pace, and to finish all 19.  I accomplished the first two.

The weather was 72 degrees with a dew point of 64.  It didn't feel warm, but my body would convince me that it was.  I didn't sweat profusely as a 65 year old in August, but I was sweating quite extensively.  That was the main reason why I ran 15, instead of 19.  Up to mile 12, I was thinking 20 miles.  But mile 12 started seeing me weaving and wobbling some, then much more during the last mile.  The sweat was also causing me to stop more frequently.

I was hitting 155 or even 156 throughout the whole run, according to Garmin, and clocking 14 & 15 minutes a mile, no 16s.  Last Monday's 12, I only did 3 155/156 and ZERO 14's, but 2 15's.  Plus to add a further insult to last Monday's run, the dew point was 55 degrees, not 64, today.

I made the internal decision to run faster and hold the cadence, this morning.  I wanted to see if I could do it.  So, while I don't think I am out of the woods of slow, plodding times, I now know I can run faster with a consistently higher cadence.  I found a screen on my watch that gave me instant pace and distance.  That instant pace was the motivation of the faster splits.

The comfort of running loops (and not running TO the loop or FROM the loop home) gave me the freedom to push the body.

Today's run was 15 miles at 15:02 pace at a 127 bpm avg.  HR stayed above 130 from around mile 8 to the end.  The hammock was empty!!!!!!  And I was still gettin' it.  3 hours, 51 minutes.  A 15 minute pace under sweaty conditions.  Last week's 12 with drier conditions was 16:16 pace at 117 avg bpm.

It's a turning point.  Not quite sure if I'm on the 'fast' track, but I have a positive experience.  And one on which to build.

Another benefit to doing loops was I didn't have to plod home 3 miles.  I stopped at 15 and gingerly walked to my car, weaving some.  I could've done one more loop as a plod, but I didn't need to do that.

Thanks for reading.

Hope the toe doesn't turn into an issue that affects your running...

I was really impressed when I saw your Stava stats for the 15 miles on Monday.  Awesome pace and awesome cadence.  I agree that it's a turning point and a positive run that you can build on!

I also like doing loops so I don't get to far from an exit point.  Just provides some peace of mind and is easier to manage mentally.  When I run at the overlook I park in the middle and do a couple out and backs on either side of the car.  That means I pass the car after 4 miles and then again after 3 more.  I can pick up or exchange my water bottle.  I can do any combination of out and backs to get the mileage I want.  Works well and the views are awesome so I don't get bored.

Once again...congrats on a great run!

ounce wrote:

The toe thing started in July and I'm breaking runner protocol by it not having a stabbing pain before going to the doctor.  Shhh...don't tell anyone.

One stat that I haven't posted much about is Stride Length.  Avg stride length for the 12 mile run last week was 0.64 meters.  This 15 mile run (where I started the Garmin at mile 7.  Mile 7.), my stride length was never lower than 65 and averaged 67 for the last 8.72 miles.

So, a higher cadence produces a longer stride length.  A longer stride length causes my tootsies to touch the ground less and a faster pace.  Fewer steps, less damage to the feet, ankles, etc.

Now, I have to get the body to have muscle memory, eyes have to watch the pavement more on street runs, the lungs have to pick up the pace, arms, etc.

Running in circles may be the key.  Tomorrow, I'll run 5 on the streets at race cadence of 162-164.

I agree on your exit strategy.  The last mile showed a reduced cadence and a slower mile.  It was time to quit.  Weather in the morning will be about the same 72/64 temps.  Next Tuesday or Wednesday, it's supposed to have HIGHS in the 70's with snow possible in the panhandle.

Thanks, Nancy.  I'll keep plugging away, but I think the plodding days are plodding off into the sunset.

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:

The toe thing started in July and I'm breaking runner protocol by it not having a stabbing pain before going to the doctor.  Shhh...don't tell anyone.

One stat that I haven't posted much about is Stride Length.  Avg stride length for the 12 mile run last week was 0.64 meters.  This 15 mile run (where I started the Garmin at mile 7.  Mile 7.), my stride length was never lower than 65 and averaged 67 for the last 8.72 miles.

So, a higher cadence produces a longer stride length.  A longer stride length causes my tootsies to touch the ground less and a faster pace.  Fewer steps, less damage to the feet, ankles, etc.

Now, I have to get the body to have muscle memory, eyes have to watch the pavement more on street runs, the lungs have to pick up the pace, arms, etc.

Running in circles may be the key.  Tomorrow, I'll run 5 on the streets at race cadence of 162-164.

I agree on your exit strategy.  The last mile showed a reduced cadence and a slower mile.  It was time to quit.  Weather in the morning will be about the same 72/64 temps.  Next Tuesday or Wednesday, it's supposed to have HIGHS in the 70's with snow possible in the panhandle.

Thanks, Nancy.  I'll keep plugging away, but I think the plodding days are plodding off into the sunset.

You are not paying attention to the protocol.  It has to be broken or excruciatingly painful (Mark) or you have to wait 40 years if the pain is just dull and annoying (me).  Get with the program Doug!

It's interesting that you mention that your stride length is longer as your pace increases...the whole plan for me was to keep my stride length constant while I increased my cadence hence decreasing heal strike.  I wasn't vey successful.  I made a small improvement at slower paces but as my speed increases so does my cadence and so does my stride length.  That's why I can't do easy pace runs at a higher cadence.  This running thing is harder than it looks!

To bad the weather didn't cooperate this morning.  Not a bad run for the conditions but your cadence did drop off.  I do think that you may not have been fully recovered from your Monday run.  It's that whole cumulative fatigue thing...

Snow in Texas?  We're back to mid-80s here.  Indian Summer weather.  But it's nice running conditions in the morning.  The short days cause it to warm up later and slower so I have time to get my runs in before it gets uncomfortable.

Keep plugging...I'll keep watching for Strava stats.

nkrichards wrote:How is the calf feeling today?  Your run was looking good until you came up lame...  Was it something acute like stepping in a hole or twisting it or did it just come on with time?  Hope it's just a small blip in the training cycle and doesn't require a longer layoff.

Julie wrote:Great to hear about no pain and yes, fall weather is amazing. Onward and upward, as they say.

nkrichards wrote:Glad to hear you're going to listen to your body and adjust your goal (full/half) later in the training cycle.  I think the decision to skip the Thanksgiving marathon test run is a good one.  More moderate training runs will leave you better prepared for Houston.  I would be concerned that running a full on Thanksgiving weekend would require to much recovery time and take away from training.

Very happy to hear you dodged the bullet and that the calf is feeling better.

Also excited that you made it back to the gym to lift.  Not only do I think that strength training can make you a better runner but I'm also a big advocate of making this fun.  After all isn't that what we're after...especially at this age.  What is the point of living a longer healthy life if we don't enjoy it!!!

Keep looking at the positives...I see lots of them.  Enjoy the journey and choose what pleases you.  It's your journey!

ounce wrote:

nkrichards wrote:Glad to hear you're going to listen to your body and adjust your goal (full/half) later in the training cycle.  I think the decision to skip the Thanksgiving marathon test run is a good one.  More moderate training runs will leave you better prepared for Houston.  I would be concerned that running a full on Thanksgiving weekend would require to much recovery time and take away from training.

Very happy to hear you dodged the bullet and that the calf is feeling better.

Also excited that you made it back to the gym to lift.  Not only do I think that strength training can make you a better runner but I'm also a big advocate of making this fun.  After all isn't that what we're after...especially at this age.  What is the point of living a longer healthy life if we don't enjoy it!!!

Keep looking at the positives...I see lots of them.  Enjoy the journey and choose what pleases you.  It's your journey!

Thanks, Nancy.  It's always been part of the journey to pass on the full, if I would not be able to officially finish the marathon in 6 hours.  I'm not going to put myself through that kind of effort and not finish officially.  I've done that and it leaves a real and enduring bad taste in my mouth.  I have until early December to drop to the Half, for which I'm 'adequately' trained.

I ran 4 on Monday to make sure the legs know that it's not recovery time.  It was 76 degrees.

I'm running in the morning.  Something in the upper teens or 5 hours.  A cold front literally blew through, overnight.  The temp will be in the 50s, when I run.  The low is forecasted to be 50 in the city, which I am.  The wind should relax, too.  Great running weather in Houston.

On another subject...so, I went to the podiatrist, this afternoon.  He's a runner, was chasing the 50 States target, a rock climber.  They took a couple of xrays to rule out fracture and to see how the bones look.  I have some discomfort which doesn't make me limp and doesn't impede my running, so there's really nothing to do.  He sees runners that have that pain and it's in the Plantar Plate (see picture).  It obviously isn't too bad because I don't hurt enough to not walk.  The bottom picture is what my 2nd toe looks like from the outside...bent upwards at the 2nd joint.  I could have tingling and pain, which may have been a neuroma, but I don't.  


And the 2nd toe's 3rd bone isn't sitting right on top of the 4th.  It slumps a bit to the left.  He thinks it's because the big toe is leaning like the Tower of Pisa into the top of the 2nd toe.  He could do an MRI to get in to the nitty gritty, but to what end?  It doesn't keep me from running.

I asked if the Plantar Plate thing is caused by my weight.  He said, "Absolutely not.  I have skinny runners in here with the same thing and hurting like hell."

So, that's it.

I'm off to be shortly.  Thanks for reading.  Nighty night.

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:

nkrichards wrote:Glad to hear you're going to listen to your body and adjust your goal (full/half) later in the training cycle.  I think the decision to skip the Thanksgiving marathon test run is a good one.  More moderate training runs will leave you better prepared for Houston.  I would be concerned that running a full on Thanksgiving weekend would require to much recovery time and take away from training.

Very happy to hear you dodged the bullet and that the calf is feeling better.

Also excited that you made it back to the gym to lift.  Not only do I think that strength training can make you a better runner but I'm also a big advocate of making this fun.  After all isn't that what we're after...especially at this age.  What is the point of living a longer healthy life if we don't enjoy it!!!

Keep looking at the positives...I see lots of them.  Enjoy the journey and choose what pleases you.  It's your journey!

Thanks, Nancy.  It's always been part of the journey to pass on the full, if I would not be able to officially finish the marathon in 6 hours.  I'm not going to put myself through that kind of effort and not finish officially.  I've done that and it leaves a real and enduring bad taste in my mouth.  I have until early December to drop to the Half, for which I'm 'adequately' trained.

I ran 4 on Monday to make sure the legs know that it's not recovery time.  It was 76 degrees.

I'm running in the morning.  Something in the upper teens or 5 hours.  A cold front literally blew through, overnight.  The temp will be in the 50s, when I run.  The low is forecasted to be 50 in the city, which I am.  The wind should relax, too.  Great running weather in Houston.

On another subject...so, I went to the podiatrist, this afternoon.  He's a runner, was chasing the 50 States target, a rock climber.  They took a couple of xrays to rule out fracture and to see how the bones look.  I have some discomfort which doesn't make me limp and doesn't impede my running, so there's really nothing to do.  He sees runners that have that pain and it's in the Plantar Plate (see picture).  It obviously isn't too bad because I don't hurt enough to not walk.  The bottom picture is what my 2nd toe looks like from the outside...bent upwards at the 2nd joint.  I could have tingling and pain, which may have been a neuroma, but I don't.  


And the 2nd toe's 3rd bone isn't sitting right on top of the 4th.  It slumps a bit to the left.  He thinks it's because the big toe is leaning like the Tower of Pisa into the top of the 2nd toe.  He could do an MRI to get in to the nitty gritty, but to what end?  It doesn't keep me from running.

I asked if the Plantar Plate thing is caused by my weight.  He said, "Absolutely not.  I have skinny runners in here with the same thing and hurting like hell."

So, that's it.

I'm off to be shortly.  Thanks for reading.  Nighty night.

I know you were disappointed with your run on Wednesday morning.  It actually looked pretty good until it wasn't.  Cadence graph looked good till the last couple miles.  It was a good training run but I realize that you're running out of time to meet your Houston goals.  Can't say you didn't give it a good effort.

Marty had/has toe issues on both feet.  His toe lumps up like your x-ray shows.  I think they called it Morton's Toe...with complications.  His big toe slid over under the second toe if I remember correctly.  He finally had surgery on both feet...a few weeks apart.  They cut and reshaped bones and pulled the big toe out where it belonged.  He wears orthotics and toe spacers.  It is starting to revert back.  He's not impressed and wonders if they didn't do enough.  So far he's able to do most everything without to much pain...he's not a runner.

Hope you pain level stays manageable.  It is nice to know what they think is going on I guess.

Enjoy lifting.  I assume that if you have made the decision not to run the full you will continue to train and run the half.  If so...I'll see you on Strava.

ounce wrote:Timing is everything.  This morning it was 72 degrees with 100% humidity.  Just 10 degrees warmer than Wednesday.

I wasn't planning on running anyway.  Woke up with no niggles, too!  Planning on running 6 in the morning.

I'm going to take a look at Hal's HM3 program.  The 3 is # of days to run on the schedule.

Nancy, I might even warm up for a half mile or a mile.  I know, I know.  Alert the media!

We'll see.

nkrichards wrote:

ounce wrote:Timing is everything.  This morning it was 72 degrees with 100% humidity.  Just 10 degrees warmer than Wednesday.

I wasn't planning on running anyway.  Woke up with no niggles, too!  Planning on running 6 in the morning.

I'm going to take a look at Hal's HM3 program.  The 3 is # of days to run on the schedule.

Nancy, I might even warm up for a half mile or a mile.  I know, I know.  Alert the media!

We'll see.

Good to see we can all still laugh at our individual challenges.    Do you realize how many years I ran before I finally started warming up and cooling down.  It's only on days you're running a slightly faster tempo...on long run days your first mile is your warmup. 

Cadence is still challenging for me...as is running at lower HR efforts.  

But I'm having fun and it seems like now that you've accepted dropping to the half you seem to be enjoying training more...and running well!

nkrichards wrote:You've put yourself in a good position to run a very good half in January.  I think maybe it's easier for me to recognize your preparedness than it is to recognize mine.

nkrichards wrote:Turned the game on last night in time to see the last out of the 4th inning.  I wouldn't say that I watched the game but it was on in the background and I looked up when the crowd cheered.  Congrats to the Astros. 

ounce wrote:

nkrichards wrote:Turned the game on last night in time to see the last out of the 4th inning.  I wouldn't say that I watched the game but it was on in the background and I looked up when the crowd cheered.  Congrats to the Astros. 

It was a good series.  The Astros are incredibly deep in pitching and were in the right place at the right time on defense in most cases.

The parade is today and it'll be in the 80s.  I'll be working, but with it on in the background.

-30-

I didn't run this morning because I'm hoping to have something cooler than 75 degrees.  I get to run, this coming weekend, so I'll do my 12 then.  

When I lifted on Friday, it was the first time in 2 weeks.  I can report that while working out once a week allows me to maintain most of the weight amounts lifted, working out once every 2 weeks does not.