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Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

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Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Alex Kubacki on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:55 pm

I was thinking of doing a fast finish two weeks before my marathon. I'd be doing 16-17 and finishing about 4 at MP. Is that too close to finish like that? Or should I do the fast finish on the 20 this weekend three weeks out? Thanks.



Two weeks ago I did 18 with 14 at MP as part of Phitz's schedule.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Jim Lentz on Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:13 pm

I would do the 16-17 with 4 miles at MP 2 weeks before the marathon.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Jerry on Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:49 pm

2 or 3 weeks out, it depends on your recovery time and past experience. As to the fast finish @MP, I always leave it to the moment.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:25 pm

Jerry wrote:2 or 3 weeks out, it depends on your recovery time and past experience. As to the fast finish @MP, I always leave it to the moment.

Agree with Jerry! but I have done it exactly that 2 weeks out. I see no problem with 2 weeks out or even incorporated into a mid week long run instead. During taper it is all about maintaining while giving the legs some rest.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Ben Z on Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:43 pm

I typically do 20 easy 2 weeks out. Or a harder 20 w/ 10-14 @ marathon pace (or a half-marathon race) 3 weeks out.

So I think you are safe either way as long as you don't do much more than what you describe 2 weeks out. You still have plenty of time to recover IMO. Plus, I'm a bigger fan of the higher-mileage taper compared to the old 75%/50%/25% rule. I much prefer something closer to 80%, 60%, 40% (in the last 6 days).
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Nick Morris on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:27 pm

I think that it depends on how your body recovers. For me, 2 weeks would be enough time to recover. How long did it take you to fully recover from your last fast finish run? You may want to use that as a gauge.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Schuey on Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:05 pm

Ben Z wrote:I typically do 20 easy 2 weeks out. Or a harder 20 w/ 10-14 @ marathon pace (or a half-marathon race) 3 weeks out.

So I think you are safe either way as long as you don't do much more than what you describe 2 weeks out. You still have plenty of time to recover IMO. Plus, I'm a bigger fan of the higher-mileage taper compared to the old 75%/50%/25% rule. I much prefer something closer to 80%, 60%, 40% (in the last 6 days).

I have done both of the workouts Ben has listed. These days I tend to do the easy/steady long run 2 weeks out. I feel that I have enough confidence in myself that on race day that I will hit my race day pace.

Although I will add this that I have learned that when I get to taper (which I really call it Sharpening), I will reduce the mileage but keep the intensity in my workouts. I believe to many people make the mistake that taper is all about running easy and recovery. It is but really it is about bring the mileage down which will reduce the stress on the body but keeping your training the same.

My key workout these days that tells me if I'm ready for race day is my last hard run the week of the race. So for a Sunday marathon I will go out and do 9 miles with 4 miles @ MP -10 to -12 seconds. If I can nail this workout feeling go and not feeling like it took a lot of me I know I'm ready for my goals on race day.

Example of this would be this past spring I went out and nailed this workout with my 4 miles being 6:18 down to 6:10. I know right after that workout that if everything else feel into place I could run my 6:28 pace at Boston.

Now last fall I did the same workout before Chicago and I had a hard time with it the first 3 miles where 6:55 down to 6:19 w/ .50 @ 6:17. And it was tough, I remember coming home and telling Lisa I was not ready to break 2:50 yet. Although I tried durning the race, I know after 14 miles it was not in the cards and backed off. Ended up avg. 6:32 for a 2:53.

So back to what you were talking about I find that I like to put the work into during the training cycle and feel that my gains are made from week 10 down to week 5 left to marathon. After that everything seems to be maintenance although I believe in keeping the intensity as for the long runs once I get to 4 weeks out they become more of a steady run with a fartlek style. And when I do my 9 w/4 @ MP -10 to -14 feeling good then I know the work I put in during training is going to pay off or at least gives me the idea if I can hit my goal marathon pace and time.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Diego on Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:20 pm

You have already done the 18 with 14 at MP. Now you need to refine things a bit. I would actually run the long run 2 weeks out with the last 3-4 close to HMP or MP minus 10-20 seconds to mimic what you'll feel in the marathon in the last 10k.



It only takes 1 day recovery for each mile run MP or faster. That fine tuning will also have a beneficial training effect 4-5 days later that you can carry in to the marathon.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:09 am

jimd wrote:You have already done the 18 with 14 at MP. Now you need to refine things a bit. I would actually run the long run 2 weeks out with the last 3-4 close to HMP or MP minus 10-20 seconds to mimic what you'll feel in the marathon in the last 10k.



It only takes 1 day recovery for each mile run MP or faster. That fine tuning will also have a beneficial training effect 4-5 days later that you can carry in to the marathon.

But are you suggesting that this last long run (2 weeks out) is a 20? I think 20s are a lot more on the body than even 16s...
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  mul21 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:39 am

Mike MacLellan wrote:
jimd wrote:You have already done the 18 with 14 at MP. Now you need to refine things a bit. I would actually run the long run 2 weeks out with the last 3-4 close to HMP or MP minus 10-20 seconds to mimic what you'll feel in the marathon in the last 10k.



It only takes 1 day recovery for each mile run MP or faster. That fine tuning will also have a beneficial training effect 4-5 days later that you can carry in to the marathon.

But are you suggesting that this last long run (2 weeks out) is a 20? I think 20s are a lot more on the body than even 16s...

No, he's suggesting the 16-17 that Alex was planning on with the last 4 or so at MP-10-20 or HMP. I tend to agree with that theory. I think more than 16 or so 2 weeks out is pushing the limits (for me anyway) and there's a lot more risk to doing it than any benefit you might gain.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Mike MacLellan on Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:02 am

Ah, clear now. I agree.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Alex Kubacki on Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:04 pm

Thanks everyone. I like the idea of going a little sub MP. I usually recover pretty well.



Martin, in the last week how many days out do you do that 9M 4 sub MP test?
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Diego on Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:31 pm

mul21 wrote:
Mike MacLellan wrote:
jimd wrote:You have already done the 18 with 14 at MP. Now you need to refine things a bit. I would actually run the long run 2 weeks out with the last 3-4 close to HMP or MP minus 10-20 seconds to mimic what you'll feel in the marathon in the last 10k.



It only takes 1 day recovery for each mile run MP or faster. That fine tuning will also have a beneficial training effect 4-5 days later that you can carry in to the marathon.

But are you suggesting that this last long run (2 weeks out) is a 20? I think 20s are a lot more on the body than even 16s...

No, he's suggesting the 16-17 that Alex was planning on with the last 4 or so at MP-10-20 or HMP. I tend to agree with that theory. I think more than 16 or so 2 weeks out is pushing the limits (for me anyway) and there's a lot more risk to doing it than any benefit you might gain.





Correct--16 miles. There's no point running the last 4 at MP because you have already done 18 with 14 at MP. Run them a bit faster.
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Re: Fast Finish Two Weeks Out

Post  Schuey on Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:59 am

Alex Kubacki wrote:Thanks everyone. I like the idea of going a little sub MP. I usually recover pretty well.



Martin, in the last week how many days out do you do that 9M 4 sub MP test?

Alex I do that workout 4 days out from my race. So for a Sunday Marathon I will do it on Wednesday. This then allows for any recovery I need from it. So from Wed to race day my week would look like this:

Wed: 9 w 4@MP -10 to -14
Thu: Recovery
Fri: Recovery/Off ( I have made it a habit to take this day off before a race)
Sat: Shakeout run with some pick-ups
Sun: Race

For a Saturday race (like Bayshore) everything would move back a day and for a Monday race (like Boston) everything would move up a day.
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