35, 5, and 2

Wow! It gets down to 47 where you live? Glad you're taking advantage of the decent running weather while you can.

Speaking of which, good job sticking with it on the run today. Sometimes goosing it a little bit can get you out of a rut and improve the whole run. Nice to see a sub-12 in there.

Mark B wrote:Wow! It gets down to 47 where you live? Glad you're taking advantage of the decent running weather while you can.

Speaking of which, good job sticking with it on the run today. Sometimes goosing it a little bit can get you out of a rut and improve the whole run. Nice to see a sub-12 in there.

It's part of the wacky weather the country the past couple of months. I'm loving it, but by Tuesday, it'll be a high of 86.

And thanks, too, Mark on my run. I do feel the weather played a big roll in the times. It will be interesting how the times will change as the temps increase. Might have to run by the 70% of hrmax, if the times in the last post causes materially change. I can't help but believe I am n=1 in this training cycle.

I do believe in the premise of pace is more important than distance, when one has established a good base of endurance. As with all training cycles, being injury-free is important. Stay tuned.

To lead off this post, Mark needs to know that a weird thing will happen at the end of the week, here in Houston. We're expecting another bout of low temperatures in the 40's. Whoda thunk it will happen this late in April?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I put in 8 miles this morning before heading off to a family reunion at Huntsville State Park, about an hour's drive north on I-45. My last run was on Friday morning in 45 degree at a 12:08 average pace.

I had a couple of things to figure out about this run. Firstly, I would like to know if there is any of the carbo-loading remaining from Wednesday's meal. I get an unmistakable pain, if I'm low on carbs. Secondly, I'd like to know how fast I get up to speed, if I do at all. Thirdly, how is speed affected when the temperature is 13 degrees more (58 starting temp at 5 a.m.). Finally, what can I take from this run that supports (or doesn't) a pace-based training program.

My desired pace, at this point, is 12:30. If I go faster on average, then that's fine and maybe I need to lower the desired pace to match the actual pace. And as the summer heat (eventually) shows up, do I need to keep the 12:30 pace or adjust it lower or higher? For now, running every other day seems to be working for my body.

8.16 miles, 1:39:11, avg pace 12:09, avg HR 138 (I believe this is incorrect), max HR 158 during mile 1, 1st half pace 12:34, 2nd half pace 11:44.

1. 12:26, 132 hr
   
2. 12:34, 135 hr
   
3. 12:44, 139 hr
   
4. 12:37, 141 hr
   
5. 12:11, 140 hr
   
6. 12:15, 139 hr
   
7. 11:52, 144 hr
   
8. 10:47, 137 hr (can't be right. I think the battery is low)
   
9. 10:49 pace
   

Off I go. The first two miles seemed to roll by uneventfully averaging 12:30, but for some reason my 3rd mile time spike and my average was showing 12:38. I thought maybe, when I stopped to tie my shoe, that I maybe failed to stop the watch. So, I had to work on getting my time down. 12:34 was the 1st half time and while that was pretty close to my target, I needed to get it down.

Mile 5 saw a slow decrease in average pace, but I was feeling good to continue working on the overall pace. After mile 6, I got a wild hair to see if I could run the last two miles faster. I usually like to pick up the speed on the last mile or last half mile, but I was feeling fine and kicked it in gear. During the final mile, I saw I had lowered my average pace markedly, which made me go faster, but I had no idea I did a mile...the last mile..in 10:47. That's pretty fricking amazing to me.

So to answer my 4 questions, I can say

1. Good quantity of carbs, although the afternoon showed that I was running low, but without pain.
   
2. Well, I found out that I warm up over a couple of miles. So for a race, it seems I might have to do a mile warm up to get the muscles purring.
   
3. The increase in temperature to 58 degrees had zero effect.
   
4. The 6 mile run on April 2 was at 12:26 pace. Friday's 8 mile run was at 12:08 and todays was at 12:09 with a 10:47 mile at mile 8. Canova says that once you have reached a pace level consistently at a certain distance, then increasing the distance is the next step.
   

I would like to think that 2 weeks worth of pace running would tell me that my present pace is real, but it's just not enough data to make me believe. But it sure is fun to be running at this pace and that I have all summer to be healthy and see what morning lows in the high 70's does to pace.

The first batch of cooler weather is the 3rd week of September and 'cooler' means low 70's or even a 69. Of course my goal is to run a faster Houston marathon. In 2013, my pace was 13:54. In 2012, it was 13:04. In 2011, it was 14:01. I'm excited about the coming training cycle. Thanks for stopping by.

Nice work, and make sure to get out and take advantage of that cooler weather heading your way!

I've found I warm up in stages. It takes about a mile to get the initial kinks out and start to "glow" enough to make my HR strap work right; at about 2.3 miles, I hit another stage where my gloves usually come off because the warmth has made it to my extremities; lastly, I sometimes feel on longer runs that things really start to working smoothly after about 5 or 6 miles. Knowing that tends to help in races, both in how I dress and how I approach those first few miles.

Thanks, Mark. I might start to believe that taking a mile to 3 to warm up might keep me from going out too fast in a race. It could happen! Eh, probably not.

This week, I had wanted to run some hours subsequent to doing CrossFit. I can report that running many hours after CrossFit is very difficult. I shant do that in the future. I only do CrossFit Monday-Wednesday, each week.

Today, was a run based on Canova's pace over distance plan that says when the runner feels like he's achieved a good time on a particular distance, then the runner increases the distance. So, I felt like attempting to run 10 miles at a 12:30 or less pace because running eight miles at an 12:09 and a 12:08 seemed to be consistent.

So in the wee pre-dawn hours, it was 45 degrees with a steady 10 mph NW wind. I put on 1 long sleeve shirt and 1 sleeveless shirt, in addition to gloves and a busa (a thin belacava type article). This time, I drove up to Memorial Park and started from there. This will cause me to change up my route and I will run along some new paths along Buffalo Bayou to which I have been looking forward. These paths have some ups and downs, attributed to being by the bayou. Therefore, this route cannot be compared to the prior eight mile runs. Hmmm. Very interesting.

10 mile run, 2:02:01, 12:12 avg pace, 143 avg bpm, 159 max bpm during mile 10, 12:16 1st half pace, 12:08 2nd half pace.

1. 12:43, 134 bpm
   
2. 11:55, 138 bpm
   
3. 12:22, 141 bpm
   
4. 12:12, 141 bpm
   
5. 12:12, 143 bpm
   
6. 12:14, 139 bpm
   
7. 11:53, 145 bpm
   
8. 12:18, 146 bpm
   
9. 12:13, 149 bpm
   
10. 11:56, 154 bpm
    

It shows that I didn't have much trouble maintaining a decent pace, after mile 1, but the effort, especially in the 2nd half, was greater. I encountered more rises and drops than I did on the 6 or 8 mile runs. I knew it was effort for my running benefit. Actually, it was a fun run, although my piriformis is barking as if I had run farther. I attribute it to the course. And the weather was really nice. As an aside, we're forecasted to break a record low temperature on Saturday morning that has lasted since 1901 of 44 degrees.

So in the three Fridays since starting the pace plan, I've started at:

1. April 5 - 6 miles, 12:05 pace, avg HR 148, 2 sub-12 miles
   
2. April 12 - 8 miles, 12:08 pace, avg HR 145, 1 sub-12 mile
   
3. April 19 - 10 miles, 12:12 pace, avg HR 143, 3 sub-12 miles (2 in the second half)
   

I guess I'll just have to see how these times and HR's change for the heat that will certainly be here sooner than I would like. Hope I stay healthy. Thanks for your time.

Progress! It looks good.

Still marveling over a record low of 44. That's downright nippy for your parts. Um, er. You know what I mean.

Well, it would seem our 3 week run of lows in the 40's will not extend to 4 weeks. Looks like the lowest low will only be in the mid-50's.

I need to get some information on feet turnover. I won't be able to run until the end of the week. I am skiddish about the effect if the coming heat and the pace. I don't think Canova had a 6 hour marathoner in mind using his plan.

Talk about a blank canvas.

You're a trailblazer, Ounce! Cutting edge!

There's a lot of talk of an optimum running cadence of about 180 steps per minute (give or take). I've been working toward that myself. It's easier to do when you go barefoot, because it greatly reduces impact, but I've managed to get fairly close in shoes, as well.

It takes some getting used to, though, because it forces you to not overstride and come smacking down on the back of your heel. It might be a fun experiment for you. The easiest way to do it is count the steps on one foot in a minute, then do the math.

Trailblazer my ass, er, I mean, Thanks, Mark!

I never started running 'again', when I started running in late 2003. So, I never had the benefit of ever being fast or running fast. I started running from walking. My watershed moment in running came in 2010 (for the 2011 Houston marathon), when I started running the back end of a long run at a faster pace than the front end. It just seemed logical that if I was going to bleed less time during the last part of a marathon, then I'd need to be faster in the 2nd half of a long run. And I PR'd that marathon.

When I read the Canova article, it again seemed logical to have a good marathon pace for a long run and work your distance up to marathon distance. But a hot summer doesn't bode well for increasing distance at pace, so I either run at pace no matter the HR for the distance or run at a HR done when it was in the 40's, which is about 71-73% or 141.

Hence the blank canvas.

ounce wrote:Trailblazer my ass, er, I mean, Thanks, Mark!

Glad to be of service.

I need to look at that Canova article. Starting from MP at a shorter distance and progressively extending the distance could be difficult if you pick a too-ambitious MP to start with. And it might be getting at least part of the cart before the horse, focusing on speed more than endurance. You need to give your body the chance to positively adapt and build that aerobic base. If you're pushing it too hard, those adaptations don't happen. Something to think about, anyway.



And for the record, while I've been running on and off since I was in high school, I was never fast.

I, too, was curious about biting off more than I could run, but it's fairly self-limiting in that if you can't maintain the pace (and you're honest with yourself OR you recognize that injury will slow you down), then you can't up your mileage at that pace. Plus, if you don't have an endurance base already established, then that needs to be the first objective.
I chose 12:30 as the pace for my first pace run, but found I could maintain a faster pace. Now, I think ~12:08 is right for the moment. My 10 mile run last Friday was at 12:12, so before advancing to 11 or 12 mile runs, I need to get my pace down to 12:08.
So how much time do I need to allow before increasing the distance? I dunno.

ounce wrote:So how much time do I need to allow before increasing the distance? I dunno.

Hm. You might want to use the HR data you're collecting to help determine that. As time progresses, your HR should rise less with your improving fitness. I don't know of any hard-and-fast formula for something like that, so I think you'd just want to assess the general trend line.

I agree that HR will be a good objective measure. And I noticed the avg HR for the 6, 8 and 10 mile runs creeped up a bit.

*30*

In the morning, I will run an 8 mile run at the last 8 mile pace of 12:08. What will be interesting is that it will be around 63 degrees, or 15-20 degrees warmer than the last time I ran 8. I expect the average HR to increase. Other variables are it'll be the first run of the week (fresh legs) and a rested body. If there's no change, then the variables played a larger role than temperature.

Hope your run went well this morning!

How'd the run go? I wouldn't be surprised if your HR bumped up a bit.

I just went through a big temperature swing myself yesterday and was reminded why spring marathons are are so tricky for vampires? mole men? runners who train in the cool gloom all fall, winter and early spring. Twenty degrees makes a huge difference when you're not used to it.

Mark B wrote:How'd the run go? I wouldn't be surprised if your HR bumped up a bit.

I just went through a big temperature swing myself yesterday and was reminded why spring marathons are are so tricky for vampires? mole men? runners who train in the cool gloom all fall, winter and early spring. Twenty degrees makes a huge difference when you're not used to it.

I need a "like" button here as I totally agree!!!

Well, no need to build the suspense up any further. I was slower, with no noticeable difference in average HR, which really doesn't make much sense to me other than my cardiovascular system is overly ready to handle what I was doing, but another system was not.

It was 65 degrees this morning with a dewpoint of 60 dgrees.

8.10 miles, 1:40:21, 12:23 average pace, 143 avg HR, 158 max HR during mile 1 and 7, 1st and 2nd half pace 12:23

1. 12:00, 131 bpm
   
2. 12:16, 136 bpm
   
3. 12:46, 139 bpm
   
4. 12:30, 144 bpm
   
5. 12:20, 145 bpm
   
6. 12:31, 147 bpm
   
7. 12:15, 152 bpm
   
8. 12:25, 149 bpm
   

And for the sake of comparison - April 12 - 47 degrees,
8 mile run, 1:37:34, 12:08 avg pace, 145 avg HR, 160 max HR during mile 8, 12:23 first half average and 11:53 2nd half pace

1. 12:20, 138 bpm
   
2. 12:46, 139 bpm
   
3. 12:23, 144 bpm
   
4. 12:01, 149 bpm
   
5. 12:05, 144 bpm
   
6. 12:06, 147 bpm
   
7. 12:01, 147 bpm
   
8. 11:26, 150 bpm
   

So this was a tough run. The air was thicker than 2 weeks ago. I couldn't get a faster pace. I was sweating a lot, which is understandable. Actually, the 65 degree morning was just a couple of degrees above the 'average' low temperature for this time of year.

I was really disappointed, but since I'm working on running faster and I am still running faster than a month ago, it's not a complete loss. It re-inforces that I slow as the temps rise. In past years, I could quantify that I slowed 30 seconds per mile for every 5 degree increase in morning temperatures above 60 degrees.

I was sure surprised that my average heart rate wasn't higher than it was, but I was slower at about the same HR as the April 12 run. The only thing I can think of that was different in preparation from the April 12 run was a wee bit of carbo loading. So, I'm going to run the 8 again on either Saturday or Sunday. Temps should be comparable +/- 3 degrees.

And for something odd for Houston, it might be in the 40's next Friday, MAY 4th, which if it holds true, it might be cooler in the Cleveland area, next weekend.

Please disect and give your thoughts. thanks for your time.

Don't be discouraged Doug. I'd say you can attribute some of the slow down to tired legs as you have been working hard and some to cardiac creep with the climbing temps and humidity. You are indeed making progress.@

My HR is regularly a decent amount higher when I run on a mill in the winter than it is for paces even a tad slower than I run outside. I'm talking paces 10-20 seconds slower and HRs 10 or so bpm higher when I'm indoors. There's always a huge adjustment period for in the spring as well, mostly due to humidity moreso than anything else I think. And we have a lot of that here in the St. Louis area too.

It is frustrating, but the body will adjust. I always look forward to the weather cooling off in the fall and suddenly my long run paces pick up by 10-15 seconds a mile without any increase in effort.

It's all about adaptation, Doug. I think you showed good discipline on keeping an even effort level in the tougher conditions, which only naturally means that stress on your body results in slower times. Totally normal, and expected.

Two splits that stand out to me are the first two miles (I presume it's the same route):
Mile 1 - 12:00/131 today vs. 12:20/138 on April 12
Mile 2 - 12:16/136 today vs. 12:46/139 on April 12

Those are faster times, with lower average heart rates, despite worse conditions. That's encouraging.

Ah, the benefit of 3 sets of fresh eyes. I thank you all.

And Mark, thanks for pointing out the comparison on the first 2 miles. And yes, it's the same course.

Actually for Friday's run, I was trying to maintain the April 12 pace, no matter the HR. So, it was my body that didn't want to go along with that plan. After all, the heart is just beating and isn't having to support any weight like the rest of the muscles and skeleton.

This morning, I walked 7 miles. But Sunday morning, it will be Humidity Run - Part Deaux.

Aha!. If you goal was to maintain the April 12 paces, then those first two miles are telling in a different sort of way.

You started out significantly faster yesterday than on April 12 (20 seconds faster in the first mile, 30 seconds faster in the second). It's not so surprising that your body rebelled somewhat in the miles that followed. If you had a time machine it'd be interesting to see what would have happened if you'd run Mile 1 yesterday a little slower.

And while the heart doesn't actually work like your legs, it does a great job as your body's tachometer... showing how much stress you're putting on the "engine" in varying conditions.

Mark B wrote:Aha!. If you goal was to maintain the April 12 paces, then those first two miles are telling in a different sort of way.

You started out significantly faster yesterday than on April 12 (20 seconds faster in the first mile, 30 seconds faster in the second). It's not so surprising that your body rebelled somewhat in the miles that followed. If you had a time machine it'd be interesting to see what would have happened if you'd run Mile 1 yesterday a little slower.

And while the heart doesn't actually work like your legs, it does a great job as your body's tachometer... showing how much stress you're putting on the "engine" in varying conditions.

The overall pace for the April 12 run was 12:08, so I was going to try to run a 12:08 the whole time, instead of doing a negative split, like I usually do. After mile 1 and 2, I was at 12:08, but mile 3 and 4 bumped the 1st half split to 12:23. My internal coach was saying, "We've done it before. We'll do it again." Just didn't happen.

And as far as the heart rate, the average HR was 2 beats different overall and 15 seconds average slower. I've learned over the past 10 years that for me, my heart adapts quicker than my muscles and breathing. Humorously, like it's taunting me by saying, "Okay, is that the best you can do? Wake me when you're at CrossFit."

Rematch tomorrow.

So, Saturday afternoon in Houston brought a really excellent Spring storm. Wind, lightning, hail, but no loss in power. In some areas, it rained and hailed so hard that the hail was being floated by the runoff to the storm drains. I got 2 inches.

This morning was the rematch of the 8 mile run from yesterday. To shortly recap, I'm comparing the April 12th, 47 degree effort of 12:08 pace at 145 avg HR against an 8 mile run where the temperature was 65 degrees. I did that yesterday and got a 12:23 pace at 143 avg HR. I wasn't thinking I did the run correctly because I wanted to see what my HR would be to maintain a 12:08 pace, when the temperature was 18-20 degrees warmer. Short enough?

This morning it was 65 degrees with a dewpoint of 62. It was breezy and it seemed drier than yesterday. I took Mark's observation to watch my 1st half pace, so I don't go out too fast.

8.10 miles, 1:37:29, 12:01 pace, 148 bpm avg, 165 max HR during mile 4, 1st half pace 12:07, 2nd half pace 11:55.

1. 12.16, 137 bpm, max 157
   
2. 12:20, 139 bpm, max 148
   
3. 12:05, 147 bpm, max 157
   
4. 11:51, 154 bpm, max 165
   
5. 11:56, 151 bpm, max 163
   
6. 11:52, 154 bpm, max 164
   
7. 12:09, 152 bpm, max 157
   
8. 11:41, 154 bpm, max 159
   

So this is the information for which I was looking. The mile 4 time was caused by chasing down someone in front of me because he looked like he was running about the same pace I was doing. It took about 3/4ths of a mile to do it, then we chatted about the storms yesterday. But I got that pace feeling in my mind and then try to replicate it in subsequent miles, plus I didn't want to lose any time to slowing. That was a little bit of motivation, in addition to the goal of running the April 12 pace, no matter the HR.

I was getting tired at mile 6, but I kept watching my pace as it slowly decreased to 12:03, then 12:04 during mile 7. At that point, I started fretting about it increasing in the final mile. I never looked at the heart rate in the 2nd half and I wasn't concerned because I had all the input from my legs and breathing. I increased the speed just a little bit and it went down to 12:03, then to my surprise 12:02, and finally 12:01. Holy crap!

I really worked on that run. I didn't max out during any of the runs, but it was challenging.

And for the sake of comparison again - April 12 - 47 degrees,
8 mile run, 1:37:34, 12:08 avg pace, 145 avg HR, 160 max HR during mile 8, 12:23 first half average and 11:53 2nd half pace

1. 12:20, 138 bpm
   
2. 12:46, 139 bpm
   
3. 12:23, 144 bpm
   
4. 12:01, 149 bpm
   
5. 12:05, 144 bpm
   
6. 12:06, 147 bpm
   
7. 12:01, 147 bpm
   
8. 11:26, 150 bpm
   

Looking at the mile 4 times for each run, they were a foretelling as to the times for subsequent miles. Guess I have fretting about pace and times down pretty good. I'm very tired, though. So I can run a similar pace when it's warmer and more humid, but it sure takes more effort.

Do y'all think I should try to maintain an average in the 140's through the Summer? I am thinking that I should, but maybe every once and a while to run another pace run possibly as a comparison against the 47 degree run. I know my heart rate will lower, as my body and heart get more efficient with the pace. Thanks for your time.

Doug - I'm responding over here to a question that you asked Mark about running hilly vs. non-hilly terrain and how it might equate. I have lived and trained in both hilly terrain (Atlanta) and flatlands (west side of Cleveland). I find that everyday running over hills made my body stronger in many ways as I had to use more variety of muscles; however, I also had to make sure to do long runs for marathons like Chicago on flat terrain because those same muscles would get quite mad in the latter miles since they were only being used in one way. I don't think that I ever ran any faster on the flatter courses because I trained on hills but more because they were simply "easier" overall courses. However, I ran a 1:40 half in November in Atlanta on a hilly course before running the 1:37 in Houston. I did not taper for the Atlanta race - what if I had? That being said, I had a tough time over the hills at Boston this time because I did not have the ability to get to the hills (east side of Cleveland) this winter due to weather, cold, etc. I expected this. I was definitely stronger on the flat course that I ran this past weekend than I was over the hills.

During the summer, I train over very hilly terrain, even hillier than Atlanta, I think this will provide a good balance in my training as now I will be able to benefit from the flat and hilly worlds, something that I couldn't do in Atlanta. This fall racing will be a test as I will be back in flat Cleveland and run a moderately flat course in Indianapolis.

Runners like Dave-O and Schuey could probably give some good perspective on racing Boston vs. Chicago and training in Chicago. I think they do hill work on their treadmills which was something I could only do sparingly this winter, but will (hopefully) be able to do without question next winter.