35, 5, and 2

Mark B wrote:Doing good on the BK level, keep it up! Resist temptation! You're almost there!

Can you bring a jar of bacon bits with you to work as an emergency craving cure?  

Thanks.  Company Thanksgiving lunch is tomorrow.  That'll be interesting.  Bacon doesn't stay around my place long enough to get broken down into bits, much less to bring it in.

By the way, I didn't run today and just slept in.  Trying to decide whether to run tomorrow morning.  Tomorrow morning will be the last day in the 70's, as a cold front moves through in the late morning and we won't see a 60 degree temperature until Black Friday or Saturday.  Race day forecast is a low of 44, cloudy, 20% rain (probably won't happen), and NNE wind of 12.  For me, a great forecast if it doesn't rain.

BK level dropped to 0.6, down from 1.1.  Over-proteined a bit, even though I thought it wouldn't affect it.  I just must not need a lot of protein on a daily basis.  I guess I'm having conflicting thoughts over how much protein is needed to repair muscles.  Evidently, it ain't much (<60 grams a day).

This morning, the cold front hadn't blown through at 3:15, so it was 72 degrees with the same dewpoint.  By 7 a.m., it was 54 degrees.  We won't see 70 degree weather for the rest of November, indeed we may not see 65 degrees either. 

Race day weather is to be 42 at the start and 47 in the afternoon, cloudy, 20% chance of rain and a 10-15 mph NE wind.  And so I don't forget, my PR for the 25K is from 2004 at 3:15:03 or 12:33 pace.  Two years ago, the same race was a 'metric marathon' (26.2K) and my pace was 12:18.

I ran 8 miles this morning by warming up for a mile and a half, then scooting a little faster, then trying to get a 75% (150 bpm) pace going for the return trip.  I had no pain.

8.10 miles, 1:43:22, 12:47 pace, 140 avg bpm, 159 max bpm during mile 8, 1st half pace 13:01, 2nd half pace 12:33.

1. 13:09, 129 bpm
   
2. 13:05, 135 bpm
   
3. 12:55, 134 bpm
   
4. 12:55, 141 bpm
   
5. 12:33, 145 bpm
   
6. 12:44, 149 bpm
   
7. 12:32, 152 bpm
   
8. 12:26, 153 bpm
   

On Sunday, I will park a couple of miles away (rain permitting) and warm up on the course to the start line.  Hopefully, I'll be able to get up to 75% from the gun and stay there.  If I can't get up to 75%, I'll be content with 70% on the 1st loop, 75% on the 2nd loop, and who knows what on the 3rd loop.  My desire for time at that pace would be between 11:30 and 11:50/mile.

I think whatever pace I'm holding onto from miles 6-12 might be my marathon pace.  But the race will be a 150 bpm mantra race, not a negative split mantra race...at least until mile 13, thennnnn I might speed up some.

Thanks for stopping by.

You have full permission to drop the hammer at Mile 13. But keep the intensity moderated until then. It'll be a better workout for you. Good luck!

Noted.

I'm hoping for a pace that doesn't bleed much time at the target HR.  That would be very nice and seemingly indicative of a good endurance base.  Time will tell.

Forgot to mention that when I went to pick up my number for the race, that I purchased a blue/green two-tone pair of Kinvara 4's.  A new pair to break in again.

Ooo! New shoes, too? Very nice. You deserved the treat.

I swear I'm going to launch a new blog eventually... the hardest part is finding a title/theme. 

week 15 of 22
Saturday's BK dropped to 0.2 and this morning it was 0.4.  I don't foresee any sort of negative performance implication for this morning's race because I'll blame any problems on the weather. 

Presently, it's 42 degrees with a 8-12 mile NE wind.  I had a nice, restful overnight period with the usual waking up every hour starting at 3 hours before the alarm, so I wouldn't sleep over the clock, if it fails to function.  I'm not cold acclimated, yet, and these temps are the equivalent of what they'll be in January.

Eagerly awaiting a report on the race! Did you get carried away by a polar bear or something?

Nah, polar gators.

Let me put up the numbers and do the analysis later.

The headline is that I got a 10 minute PR with an 11:55 pace.  I had a 12 minute pace through 2 loops of the 3 loop course.  I kicked it in gear for the whole last loop.  Looking at the HR's for miles 1-10, I was surprised it's so high, but I might've found a nice, doable pace for the marathon.

15.54 miles, 3:05:29, 11:55 pace, 159 avg HR, 180 (90%) max HR during mile 15, pace through 2 loops 12:00/mile.

1. 11:23, 149 bpm
   
2. 11:47, 153 bpm
   
3. 11:56, 156 bpm
   
4. 12:03, 155 bpm
   
5. 12:03, 157 bpm
   
6. 11:49, 154 bpm
   
7. 12:06, 155 bpm
   
8. 12:10, 158 bpm
   
9. 12:16, 156 bpm
   
10. 12:27, 158 bpm
    
11. 11:59, 161 bpm
    
12. 11:49, 163 bpm
    
13. 11:55, 167 bpm
    
14. 11:52, 168 bpm
    
15. 11:25, 174 bpm
    
16. 11:37 pace, 172 bpm
    

I think those numbers are very encouraging and a 12:00 pace for a marathon certainly looks like a reasonable goal.  That'd be around a 5:15 finish and a huge PR, no?

mul21 wrote:I think those numbers are very encouraging and a 12:00 pace for a marathon certainly looks like a reasonable goal.  That'd be around a 5:15 finish and a huge PR, no?

Thank you for that, Jim.  My last marathon in January was a 6:09 time and my PR is 5:48 in 2012 at Houston, too.

I have a 30K race on December 15, the last race in the Houston Marathon warm up series.

Thanks again.

I agree with Jim. Those are some solid numbers (congrats on the 10-minute PR!) and a good indicator that your 12/mi pace target for the marathon is very reasonable.

And, in case you didn't know, this race was a great stimulus for even better performance come race day. Well done!

Y'all are going to have to help me out, here.  I don't see where 12 is any kind of reasonable.

I see miles 6-10 as slowing, for the same HR.
6.  11:49, 154 bpm
7.  12:06, 155 bpm
8   12:10, 158 bpm
9.  12:16, 156 bpm
10. 12:27, 158 bpm

I liked the 150 bpm pace, as I didn't think I was being pushed.  It seemed like a good target, even though I couldn't nail 1 mile with the numbers 1-5-0.  I think it's logical that the more I train, the more realistic holding 150 longer becomes and the tighter the times become.

But I need a little help getting that 12 is reasonable or very reasonable.

There's a couple things to consider here.  First, you'll be fresher off of a taper.  Second, you've got another 7 weeks or so before the marathon to gain fitness.

#3 is where it gets a little more abstract depending on who you are and how your body works.  Personally, I run marathons and I'm pushing 80-85% of max HR most of the race.  I mean, I hit 80% at the end of my 20 milers and I don't think it's because I'm running them too fast (most of the time), it's just the way my body runs.  75% is what you should be targeting for long runs so your body gets used to functioning at that HR.  Also, I do all my runs by pace and don't pay a lot of attention to HR to guide me, it's just something I monitor and I go mostly by how hard the run feels.  If you go by that, and reading your reports of late, that 12:00 pace just doesn't seem like it's a huge effort for you.  It's something that should feel a little fast on a run in the middle of the week, but once you're tapered and the legs are fresh, it's really amazing how easy your true MP feels for the first 15 miles of the race.

You'll need to continue to monitor your pace and HR, but by the time race day rolls around, I really don't think that's out of the question.  Now, if you get there and truly don't feel like it's in the cards, back the goal pace off a bit so you don't end in a death march.

mul21 wrote:There's a couple things to consider here.  First, you'll be fresher off of a taper.  Second, you've got another 7 weeks or so before the marathon to gain fitness.

#3 is where it gets a little more abstract depending on who you are and how your body works.  Personally, I run marathons and I'm pushing 80-85% of max HR most of the race.  I mean, I hit 80% at the end of my 20 milers and I don't think it's because I'm running them too fast (most of the time), it's just the way my body runs.  75% is what you should be targeting for long runs so your body gets used to functioning at that HR.  Also, I do all my runs by pace and don't pay a lot of attention to HR to guide me, it's just something I monitor and I go mostly by how hard the run feels.  If you go by that, and reading your reports of late, that 12:00 pace just doesn't seem like it's a huge effort for you.  It's something that should feel a little fast on a run in the middle of the week, but once you're tapered and the legs are fresh, it's really amazing how easy your true MP feels for the first 15 miles of the race.

You'll need to continue to monitor your pace and HR, but by the time race day rolls around, I really don't think that's out of the question.  Now, if you get there and truly don't feel like it's in the cards, back the goal pace off a bit so you don't end in a death march.

Jim, thanks.  I had forgotten about the taper.  I felt really comfortable at the pace of the race for the first two loops.  This was a race where I didn't look at the pace, except for where I happened to look down at a mile split, when I hit a mile.

7 weeks is a lot of time to gain some fitness.  I was even thinking of doing the Yasso, in the remaining weeks, to see what happens, as long as I "don't do anything stupid.", as Tim put it on the race report.  That cracked me up, but it's so true.

12 minutes is the goal until it's not.

So, let me give some of the color for Sunday's race.

I had rested well, Saturday night.  I got up and took my BK level, then fixed scrambled eggs and sausage for breakfast.  This was at 5:15.  I didn't figure this would harm me, as it was the first time that I've eaten before a long run or race, since starting LC/HF in May.  I had no digestive problems at any time afterwards.

The weather was uncharacteristically cold for Houston in November.  I stretched my calves and hips before leaving my apartment, then upon arriving at my parking spot 2 miles from the start line, I found a curb and stretched the calves again.  Then, jogged off downtown.  I'll never park that far away again.  It was too damn far to walk/saunter back after the race.  1 mile is plenty.  I can run 2 miles by doing an out, then in.

I arrived at the start line about 15 minutes before the race.  I checked my bag and waited for the national anthem.  Then, GO! 

I was amazed at how fast I got to 150 bpm.  Had to be within two-tenths of a mile.  Running the tangents, obsessively.  I only checked my watch for HR and to see how close to the measured distance that I was hitting the mile splits, which was often or just after.  I ended up running 15.54 miles on a 15.625 mile course.

The first loop came and went and I was clicking right along, with just a very minor annoyance from the right calf.  As I have said, I thought I was doing better at 150 bpm because every time I looked and was going slower or faster, I adjusted pace.  But now looking at the data, those bpm figures were very comfortable figures.  I felt like I could've run 20 miles at that HR, but would've determined that my splits would have slowed, as they were for pretty much the first 11 miles with 2 exceptions.

The wind was a factor on the runs headed eastbound, as the wind was out of the NE.  The last overpass on the last loop had a wind gust that moved me to the right, up against a curb.  That's why my pace was slower during the last half mile.

The last loop was the most fun.  There was a girl that was leading me for much of the race.  She evidently had stopped to refuel or something.  By the way, I only drank water 3 times at the same station because the other stations were off the tangent.  Anyway, at mile 14 she appeared on my right side.  There ain't no way that she was going to pass me, unless she engaged NOS or something.  Before that point, I was questioning the wisdom of running in the 160's for the last loop.  After that point...bring it on, sister.

We were nip and tuck for a half mile, then she was starting to fade.  Then, I sped up to take any thought out of her mind that she was going to beat me.  I ended up beating her by 20 seconds or so.

The race was well run, as usual, by the Houston Masters Sports Association, a local running club.  It was cold afterwards, too.  I had 2 long sleeved layers and my green race shirt, my Buff, gloves and favorite running hat, with ears.  Just shorts.  I was a little warm, going into the last loop.  It never got too bad and was a valuable acclimatization race.  The weather was a mirror image of Houston in January.

My last race of this year is the Finish Line Sports Sugar Land 30K in Sugar Land, a suburb of Houston about 25 miles southwest of downtown in US Highway 59, the major SW freeway.  PR from 2005 for this race is 4:09:47 or a ~13:21 pace.

Thanks for your time and replies.

Maybe do some fast stuff in the first 2 weeks of taper, but I think you'd be best served working in a few more tempo miles.  I think building to as many miles as you can at tempo pace really makes MP seem much easier to sustain over the long haul.

ounce wrote:Y'all are going to have to help me out, here.  I don't see where 12 is any kind of reasonable.

I see miles 6-10 as slowing, for the same HR.
6.  11:49, 154 bpm
7.  12:06, 155 bpm
8   12:10, 158 bpm
9.  12:16, 156 bpm
10. 12:27, 158 bpm

I liked the 150 bpm pace, as I didn't think I was being pushed.  It seemed like a good target, even though I couldn't nail 1 mile with the numbers 1-5-0.  I think it's logical that the more I train, the more realistic holding 150 longer becomes and the tighter the times become.

But I need a little help getting that 12 is reasonable or very reasonable.

You're looking at the WRONG miles, Doug. Look at Miles 1-5.

1. 11:23, 149 bpm
2. 11:47, 153 bpm
3. 11:56, 156 bpm
4. 12:03, 155 bpm
5. 12:03, 157 bpm

You started off WAY TOO FAST in this race, and paid for it pretty quickly. But imagine what would have happened if you'd aimed to run that first mile at about 12 -- I'd bet you wouldn't have experienced the HR creep and pace fall-off you experienced later.

This race wasn't as much about practicing perfect pacing as it was about stimulating your body and boosting your lactate threshold. You achieved that goal very well. Once race day comes around, with more training and a good taper, those benefits will be obvious.

So that's why I think 12/mi is a very reasonable pace for you in a marathon - as long as you stick to the plan. If you rabbit out of the gate, all bets are off.

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:Y'all are going to have to help me out, here.  I don't see where 12 is any kind of reasonable.

I see miles 6-10 as slowing, for the same HR.
6.  11:49, 154 bpm
7.  12:06, 155 bpm
8   12:10, 158 bpm
9.  12:16, 156 bpm
10. 12:27, 158 bpm

I liked the 150 bpm pace, as I didn't think I was being pushed.  It seemed like a good target, even though I couldn't nail 1 mile with the numbers 1-5-0.  I think it's logical that the more I train, the more realistic holding 150 longer becomes and the tighter the times become.

But I need a little help getting that 12 is reasonable or very reasonable.

You're looking at the WRONG miles, Doug. Look at Miles 1-5.

1. 11:23, 149 bpm
2. 11:47, 153 bpm
3. 11:56, 156 bpm
4. 12:03, 155 bpm
5. 12:03, 157 bpm

You started off WAY TOO FAST in this race, and paid for it pretty quickly. But imagine what would have happened if you'd aimed to run that first mile at about 12 -- I'd bet you wouldn't have experienced the HR creep and pace fall-off you experienced later.

This race wasn't as much about practicing perfect pacing as it was about stimulating your body and boosting your lactate threshold. You achieved that goal very well. Once race day comes around, with more training and a good taper, those benefits will be obvious.

So that's why I think 12/mi is a very reasonable pace for you in a marathon - as long as you stick to the plan. If you rabbit out of the gate, all bets are off.

I got to 150 HR much quicker than I anticipated.  I figured it would take me a half mile to a mile to get to 150.  I guess the warm up mile or two made it possible to get into the right HR?

I thought I was supposed to get to 150 and stay there.  Actually, it worked out to getting to 156 and staying there +/- 3 bpm.  So, should I run 130 the first mile, then 140 the second, until getting to 150 in the 3rd?

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:Y'all are going to have to help me out, here.  I don't see where 12 is any kind of reasonable.

I see miles 6-10 as slowing, for the same HR.
6.  11:49, 154 bpm
7.  12:06, 155 bpm
8   12:10, 158 bpm
9.  12:16, 156 bpm
10. 12:27, 158 bpm

I liked the 150 bpm pace, as I didn't think I was being pushed.  It seemed like a good target, even though I couldn't nail 1 mile with the numbers 1-5-0.  I think it's logical that the more I train, the more realistic holding 150 longer becomes and the tighter the times become.

But I need a little help getting that 12 is reasonable or very reasonable.

You're looking at the WRONG miles, Doug. Look at Miles 1-5.

1. 11:23, 149 bpm
2. 11:47, 153 bpm
3. 11:56, 156 bpm
4. 12:03, 155 bpm
5. 12:03, 157 bpm

You started off WAY TOO FAST in this race, and paid for it pretty quickly. But imagine what would have happened if you'd aimed to run that first mile at about 12 -- I'd bet you wouldn't have experienced the HR creep and pace fall-off you experienced later.

This race wasn't as much about practicing perfect pacing as it was about stimulating your body and boosting your lactate threshold. You achieved that goal very well. Once race day comes around, with more training and a good taper, those benefits will be obvious.

So that's why I think 12/mi is a very reasonable pace for you in a marathon - as long as you stick to the plan. If you rabbit out of the gate, all bets are off.

I got to 150 HR much quicker than I anticipated.  I figured it would take me a half mile to a mile to get to 150.  I guess the warm up mile or two made it possible to get into the right HR?

I thought I was supposed to get to 150 and stay there.  Actually, it worked out to getting to 156 and staying there +/- 3 bpm.  So, should I run 130 the first mile, then 140 the second, until getting to 150 in the 3rd?

This is where we're running into some confusion. This run - targeting 150 - was more a stimulus to your LT than anything. Seeing what happened to your HR and pace during that run suggests that using a traditional pacing of 12/mi could work for you on race day. It's a slightly different animal.

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:Y'all are going to have to help me out, here.  I don't see where 12 is any kind of reasonable.

I see miles 6-10 as slowing, for the same HR.
6.  11:49, 154 bpm
7.  12:06, 155 bpm
8   12:10, 158 bpm
9.  12:16, 156 bpm
10. 12:27, 158 bpm

I liked the 150 bpm pace, as I didn't think I was being pushed.  It seemed like a good target, even though I couldn't nail 1 mile with the numbers 1-5-0.  I think it's logical that the more I train, the more realistic holding 150 longer becomes and the tighter the times become.

But I need a little help getting that 12 is reasonable or very reasonable.

You're looking at the WRONG miles, Doug. Look at Miles 1-5.

1. 11:23, 149 bpm
2. 11:47, 153 bpm
3. 11:56, 156 bpm
4. 12:03, 155 bpm
5. 12:03, 157 bpm

You started off WAY TOO FAST in this race, and paid for it pretty quickly. But imagine what would have happened if you'd aimed to run that first mile at about 12 -- I'd bet you wouldn't have experienced the HR creep and pace fall-off you experienced later.

This race wasn't as much about practicing perfect pacing as it was about stimulating your body and boosting your lactate threshold. You achieved that goal very well. Once race day comes around, with more training and a good taper, those benefits will be obvious.

So that's why I think 12/mi is a very reasonable pace for you in a marathon - as long as you stick to the plan. If you rabbit out of the gate, all bets are off.

I got to 150 HR much quicker than I anticipated.  I figured it would take me a half mile to a mile to get to 150.  I guess the warm up mile or two made it possible to get into the right HR?

I thought I was supposed to get to 150 and stay there.  Actually, it worked out to getting to 156 and staying there +/- 3 bpm.  So, should I run 130 the first mile, then 140 the second, until getting to 150 in the 3rd?

This is where we're running into some confusion. This run - targeting 150 - was more a stimulus to your LT than anything. Seeing what happened to your HR and pace during that run suggests that using a traditional pacing of 12/mi could work for you on race day. It's a slightly different animal.

Alright.  I have it.  Thanks.

Now for a LT question.  It would seem, other than a little tiring at miles 13 and 14, that I didn't hit LT during the race.  If true, then my LT as a heart rate figure is in the 160's?  Maybe 170's?  How far off base am I?

That's a tough one to estimate your LT without being in your legs, so to speak, but aiming for the 165-170 range as your red zone (do not exceed until the final 6 miles) is probably not too far off the mark.

Agreed that you started too fast - yes you should be at 130, then 140, and settle into 150 by mile 3 or 4.  Then you should pick a target to stay at - for instance, Wendy stayed at 148-150 during the miles that I ran with her, and I kept checking when it felt like we sped up and we would adjust.  Same holds true for a marathon.  Then in the latter miles, you can let it drift upwards.  I usually try to run the first 20 miles or so at 65-75% and then I let it go (if all is well).

And there's Michele with a boatload of racing experience with a completely different take on where her HR is during a well run race.  It really is different for everyone.  However, I think that if you know your max HR is ~200, then you can pretty well guarantee that your LT is 85% of that, or 170.  Now, figuring out exactly what pace you hit 85% is definitely an exercise that takes some practice.  The pace charts will get you close, but dialing it in just right will take a few runs. 

And Mark is dead on about finding a number not to exceed until maybe even the last 5K.  If you crack 165, you're probably working too hard unless you're in the last 10K.  At that point, it's a battle of wills and how high your pain threshold is.  At least that's been my experience in the last 10K of a marathon.  It's more about fighting muscle fatigue than it is about aerobic effort once you've pounded your body for that long.

Thank y'all, sincerely.  Should be fun enacting the next few weeks until the taper.  thanks.

This morning's BK level was 0.6.  I didn't take it yesterday because I figured it would be "lo".

I went and lifted weights, today, along with some lunges, step-ups, and leg lifts.  Should be able to run tomorrow, as long as the ice doesn't form in the overnight period.

Y'all have a safe Thanksgiving, if you're headed out today.