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Closer to the Edge

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:28 pm

@Diego wrote:I like the "paralysis by analysis" line. I certainly think that rebuilding your strength is important but don't want you to falsely attribute your races to that one factor. You had too many great tempo runs and felt too good on Thursday before the race.

Get stronger, be more optimistic at the start, middle and end of the race, and find a cooler race in a new area(rehash). 3 keys to success. Oh yeah, you could also "Tebow it"!Smile

I also have similar work to do. I'm trying to get within 26.2 minutes of your time. Lord help me if you run a 2:26.20.

On a side note: Before you and Britt have kids, you should go to Vegas for Halloween. Whenever it falls on a weekend, it's a massive 3 day party. You'd need 2-3 costumes.

Yup, we're on the same page. but I don't think you have to worry about a 2:26 any time soon.

The problem is that Britt hates Halloween. I don't know why. I love it. So that would be a hard sell. I think we're going with a big group in January through to celebrate mine and my high school friends' 30th birthdays.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  John Kilpatrick on Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:39 pm

Interesting chain of events from one injury - I wonder the same thing sometimes regarding a dinged hamstring, but haven't gone through the depth of checking it out like you have. I've had the P90 thing recommended as well - curious as to how you respond to it. If nothing else, it will be something fresh and new. I read/hear completely conflicting things regarding weight training and running - guess it just sort of depends on the individual... You may already do this, but are you a subscriber to the hill sprint routines that Hudson trains runners with? Good luck!

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:42 pm

Mr MattM wrote:I'm curious what you saw after typing out your last training cycle log... and what Dreamcrusher will have to say. I think one of the BEST things for you right now is some objective perspective and input. You've had a great streak of improvements, but it seems you are on the razor's edge with sub-2:30. I have no doubt that you CAN run it, but I'm wondering if you need to put the training approach in someone else's hand for a cycle? Just wondering...

For those not on RWOL, there's been a discussion on the sub-2:45 thread about my poor racing season. Lots of interesting points, and I was asked to lay out the entire 17 week cycle, which I did, and color coded it the cycle by long, tempo, and interval workouts, as well as races. To be honest, when I laid it out in a straigthforward fashion, I didn't like what I saw. My takeaway:

- In the first 10 weeks, my workouts were too monotonous. I needed more 4-6 mile tempo runs at true LT Pace to really improve my lactate threshold. 10 mile tempos near MP are good, but I think I overloaded at the expense of more traditional workouts. I disagree that these runs took too much out of me, but I think I needed more variety;

- Not enough tempos in the last 6 weeks of training. Tried to get too "cute" with workouts like 8 x 1 mile at goal Half pace, which shifted the focus from a PR in the full to being worried about a tune-up race;

- Two 5k's and a 10k were unnessecary, and took away from the runs I should have been worried about. I know I'm better off running a fast finish 15 miler on a Wednesday instead of a 15:54 5k, so doing so was just stupid;

- In that same vein, skimped on too many mid-week long runs. 12 miles as the longest MLR in many weeks doesn't cut it for me (since others on that thread, like Pablo, don't need MLRs, and get by with just a dichotomy of workouts and easy runs);

- Needed 1 or 2 more 22-24 milers. In the future, I'm flirting with the idea of overdistance or 3:00 long runs. If I pick something other than Chicago as a goal race, such as Philly or Dallas, I will probably use Chicago as a 26 mile training run.

So in summary, here's my final determination as to blame for the poor performance in Chicago:

40% errors in training
25% mentally too quick to "give up" on a race by focusing on the negative
20% weather
15% muscular imbalances/stride inefficiency

As for outsourcing the coaching, its somethinn I am definitely debating. On one hand, I know myself, and I am not too prideful to take a look back at my training and admit where I went wrong. On the other, maybe I need a different approach with someone else calling the shots. Most elites (not that I'm on that level) seem to benefit from changes, and I think I might as well.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  GregC on Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:56 pm

I disagree that your Chicago performance had anything to do with your training, unless your saying that you were over trained or injured going into Chicago. I don't think you're saying you were over trained, since all of your suggestions for improvement have you doing more training or at least the same amount of training, not less.

You undoubtedly were in better shape than the 2:50, or whatever, that you ran. You didn't get a chance to get a true measure of your fitness because your race was essentially over 13 miles into the race (based on your half split), running at a pace that you did 10-13 mile tempo runs at during your training.

If you ask me, your race was 50% mental, 50% heat...or some variation of those 2 factors. Now, if you ran a 2:33 I'd say you could look at training and stride efficiency as reasons why you didn't hit 2:30. But having run 2:50, you didn't get a chance to see if the training was right.

Get my point?
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Alex Kubacki on Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:31 pm

@Dave-O wrote:
@Alex Kubacki wrote:A pretty good rule of thumb when dealing with strength or flexibility imbalances is to use a 3:1 ratio to correct. So for every set you do on the good side do 3 sets on the weak side.

You think so? My PT said to just do the same reps with the same weight on each side, and it will balance out.


I guess from a logic standpoint I'd be curious as to how it would balance out if you do the same for the weak as the strong. I've blown out both ankles and both times they had me doing the added work on the weak side. Of course that was 15-20 years so maybe things have changed.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  wheakory on Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:36 am

I think there's times you can over-analyze your training. Sometimes you need to just go out for a run and see how you feel that day and decide what to do. This has worked for me quite a bit. Number... times... planning... can be too much pressure and you think about it too much. Remember running is also mental. Sometimes you need to just go out and run without thinking about what your going to do that day.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave P on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:35 am

Interesting 20-20 vision look back at your training Dave.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:55 am

Post-Marathon, Weeks 2 and 3: October 24 – November 6

Contrary to how it may appear, I have been running – at least a little bit. The last two weeks I’ve put in 36 and 42 miles respectively; not exactly setting the world on fire, but pretty much ideal for my off-season schedule. At least I'm still on pace to crack 4,000 for the year.

In addition, I’ve done the p90x yoga and core routines a few times and done high repetition, low weight lifting. My endurance is lacking, as would be expected, but in terms of feeling healthy and strong, the last two weeks have been great. My hamstring and hip are feeling stronger by the day. Plus, taking Fridays off is prrreeeee-tttyyyyy awesome.

With a trip to Mexico planned Thanksgiving weekend (a honeymoon mulligan, hopefully this time without a hurricane), that’s basically what I have planned for another 4 weeks. I’ll likely get my mileage into the 50-60 range, and extend at least one run to 12 miles, but I mean it when I say this is the off-season.

I know, though, that I’ll be itching to get back after it when vacation ends. I can already feel the urge to start hammering mileage and workouts returning. With that in mind, I’ve started outlining the details of my spring. I haven’t decided on the actual race yet, but I do know that I’ll be focusing on the half-marathon. I also know that the first race of the year will be the Cross-Country Nationals in St. Louis in February, where my goal will be not to take last place. Seriously.

Speaking of being outclassed, here’s a picture of me with Emisal Favela, Matt Flaherty and Kyle Brady after the DeKalb 10k.


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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  wheakory on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:57 pm

You mentioned your lack of endurance. I would implement slow 18 - 20 milers every week for a while if it fits in your schedule. You have the speed as indicated, but keeping your feet out there for a while I think would help endurance wise. I would really think you would see a difference in your hot weather periods when your out there for a while running.

I've ran a few hot weather marathon's when I trained doing the long 20 milers for several weeks in a row, and the heat never bothered me. I contribute this to being out there on my feet for long periods getting that extra endurance.

Your way above me in performance so don't take my tips or advice to heart. I thought I would just through it out there.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:55 pm

I swear I haven't abandoned this blog, or given up running. I cut myself off from the world last week down south in Mexico. I'll post some pics and a review soon...

And then next week, the next cycle begins! Ride
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  ounce on Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:32 pm

And here I was thinking it was because I hadn't showered in a week. whew!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:45 pm

I was so looking forward to Cutler vs. V. Miller and Tebow vs. Bears defense. I guess we'll have to settle for one. Amazing how much hate there is for Tebow after all this time. I'll take leadership and modesty any day, especially in a rookie.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:00 am

@ounce wrote:And here I was thinking it was because I hadn't showered in a week. whew!

Ha!

@Diego wrote:I was so looking forward to Cutler vs. V. Miller and Tebow vs. Bears defense. I guess we'll have to settle for one. Amazing how much hate there is for Tebow after all this time. I'll take leadership and modesty any day, especially in a rookie.

The most accurate description I've read: Everything his critics say about him (atrocious delivery, terrible accuracy, happy feet in the pocket, inability to read a pro-style progression) is correct. Everything his supporters say about him (great leader, motivational teammate, incredibly hard worker, unique weapon from the QB position, makes plays when it matters most) is correct.

Personally I think his ceiling is pretty limited in the NFL, but if the Broncos commit to building a team around his strengths, then there's no reason he can't succeed.

Especially with Von Miller anchoring that defense. Wooo he's awesome.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  healdgator on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:51 pm

Tim's limiting factor will be his inability to read a defense. He'll never be a great NFL passer due to his lousy mechanics, but he could get around that with his ability to run and his refusal to turn the ball over, if he was a smarter QB. In fairness to him, he got shitty QB coaching at UF, especially his senior year.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:21 pm

@healdgator wrote:Tim's limiting factor will be his inability to read a defense. He'll never be a great NFL passer due to his lousy mechanics, but he could get around that with his ability to run and his refusal to turn the ball over, if he was a smarter QB. In fairness to him, he got shitty QB coaching at UF, especially his senior year.

He gets his first training camp as a first string QB next year. He had no training camp this year. I bet he gets better, unlike the precipitous drop we're seeing in Phillip Rivers. If Denver gets a reliable TE, Tebow will be fine. The Steelers(Seahawks), Tampa Bay(Raiders), Ravens(Giants), and Colts(Manning's terrible performance against the Bears) won Superbowls with pretty average quarterbacking and great defenses.

I think much more media attention needs to be placed on DeSean Jackson(pitiful) and the Billls' $10k Receiver rather than Tebow. All mouth and no heart!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:10 pm

@Diego wrote:
@healdgator wrote:Tim's limiting factor will be his inability to read a defense. He'll never be a great NFL passer due to his lousy mechanics, but he could get around that with his ability to run and his refusal to turn the ball over, if he was a smarter QB. In fairness to him, he got shitty QB coaching at UF, especially his senior year.

He gets his first training camp as a first string QB next year. He had no training camp this year. I bet he gets better, unlike the precipitous drop we're seeing in Phillip Rivers. If Denver gets a reliable TE, Tebow will be fine. The Steelers(Seahawks), Tampa Bay(Raiders), Ravens(Giants), and Colts(Manning's terrible performance against the Bears) won Superbowls with pretty average quarterbacking and great defenses.

I think much more media attention needs to be placed on DeSean Jackson(pitiful) and the Billls' $10k Receiver rather than Tebow. All mouth and no heart!

After all not everyone can be Tom Brady Wink
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  healdgator on Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:22 pm

@Diego wrote:
@healdgator wrote:Tim's limiting factor will be his inability to read a defense. He'll never be a great NFL passer due to his lousy mechanics, but he could get around that with his ability to run and his refusal to turn the ball over, if he was a smarter QB. In fairness to him, he got shitty QB coaching at UF, especially his senior year.

He gets his first training camp as a first string QB next year. He had no training camp this year. I bet he gets better, unlike the precipitous drop we're seeing in Phillip Rivers. If Denver gets a reliable TE, Tebow will be fine. The Steelers(Seahawks), Tampa Bay(Raiders), Ravens(Giants), and Colts(Manning's terrible performance against the Bears) won Superbowls with pretty average quarterbacking and great defenses.

I think much more media attention needs to be placed on DeSean Jackson(pitiful) and the Billls' $10k Receiver rather than Tebow. All mouth and no heart!

That will help and he needs it. He has regressed since his junior year. Steve Addazio (:shakingmyfistinanger:) and lack of practice time are the main contributors to that.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:46 pm

Time to lay this blog to rest. Despite my poor race performances, sincere thanks to everyone that followed along. Here's to a better 2012!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

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