Who's still posting over there?

The mass migration over to this site has little to do with Hal (I believe). TP has made it just too difficult to stay active over on Hal's forums by relegating his site to second tier status. I'm trying to stay active over there a bit, posting to things like Randy's race report, but especially with most former V-Teamers over here now, I have no motivation to maintain a blog over there, or to spend nearly as much time there as I used to.
Without knowing the inside politics, I feel bad for Hal for how TP seems to have handled things. As others have said though, Hal's name alone has enough cache to continue to attract new folks.

+1 on not leaving Hal. I will always be indebted to Hal for offering his site. The problem is with Training Peaks exclusively, not with him. I actually really miss his occasional comments and would love to shake his hand someday!

Randy Egge just posted a superb race report on his Kansas half ironman. I think that until we get all the race reports over here that we should still support our fellow runners, triathletes.

And spread the word.

Jim

jimd wrote:I think that until we get all the race reports over here that we should still support our fellow runners, triathletes.

And spread the word.

Jim

Should we have the expectation that "all of the race reports" would ever be "over here?" The V Team and the I Team are separate entities and not at all mutually exclusive. Everyone is welcome, but someone from that community that decides to not join this community needn't feel "pressured" to do so.

Martin VW wrote:

jimd wrote:I think that until we get all the race reports over here that we should still support our fellow runners, triathletes.

And spread the word.

Jim

Should we have the expectation that "all of the race reports" would ever be "over here?" The V Team and the I Team are separate entities and not at all mutually exclusive. Everyone is welcome, but someone from that community that decides to not join this community needn't feel "pressured" to do so.

Totally agree with the second sentence, if V-teamers who might want to stop by this forum have been made aware of the I-team.

Bobby, thanks for your post. Spot on in many regards, and appreciate the insight.

Regarding Training Peaks, I think it simply boiled down to them no longer offering the platform "this" community of people was looking for. The technology lagged, and it was apparent TP was intent on advertising their product as much as possible. I don't blame them for that; they're running a business. But that's what chased me away.

As for Hal, I still consider him an unforgettable source of information and a key contributor to my learning curve as a runner. I'll never forget that. At the same, he has a business to run as well and needs to attract new customers. Again, nothing wrong with that. Given that Hal is the reason most of us know each other, this isn't going to be a place where bashing him is allowed. I just won't tolerate it.

Mr MattM wrote:

It might be possible, with some focus and dedication, to create a site that attracts people outside of the HH world. Will that happen? I dunno. What is it that we really want (collectively)? I want a place for runners to come and find like-minded people who will discuss topics and answer questions... and let their hair down (metaphorically, as I have little left!).

I am interested in what others think this site should be. Is it a place for 'us', or for others, too. What is our niche in the vastness of the interwebz....???

Matt and I discussed last week how much we want to spread the word about this site in an attempt to draw in new members. I see benefits and pitfalls to each. For example, I wouldn't post a link on Letsrun. That's not the anonymous culture I want here. And though I'm a frequent contributor on Runners World, I haven't posted the link there yet either. Its certainly more controlled than Letsrun, but still far less so than TP was. Is that what we want as a group? On the other hand, Bobby's point about needing new members to keep things fresh is well-taken too.

So like Matt said, what is it we want?

Well I’ll say it again I love the format of this new site and I love the openest we have here. It’s day and night! Sure Matt is open to hearing what we have to say to shape this site and he has made changes to the site do to our suggestion. One could say that is because “it’s a new site”, sure but I think it has more to do about how he looks at business and the end user. I feel that Matt and Dave wanted to give us and future people a place were we can share our love for running but at the same time really feel a part of it. In my mind that is something that Hal and TP should had thought about, listening more to their customer. Not saying the customer is always right. Over at TP I truly felt like we were beating our heads on a wall. My memory is not going to be short, how many times were we told we are working on it? People are on vacation, DEAL WITH IT THIS IS HOW IT IS GOING TO BE? To me this is one of the biggest reasons why I left. Sure TP is the one making the changes not Hal but since some feel that you owe loyalty to Hal for everything, were was Hal’s loyalty to us for everything that we did for the V-Team?

My view is that Hal offered the forum but it truly is the people who contribute to the site that make it what it is. Like Bob said the site was a close niche group before all of us and they left for what reasons? Maybe some of the same reason why we left. Then later in time came our group of people that ended up having a great time and brought a lot to the V-Team. Do you see were I’m going with this it’s not one person that makes a great site or wonderful environment, it is the WHOLE everyone makes a site, family, etc. a great thing. In my view if Hal really cared for us and what we had, I would have thought he would have fought harder for us and would have understood or dislike more. Then again he has been down this road before were he just let a lot of people leave and felt he will get a new group. And yes with all of us leaving, I’m sure he feels the same way. Why? Because his loyalty is not with us! It is with TP and himself to make money! I know it sounds really cold but TP/Hal are business people and they are in this to make money not have warm feelings of friendships. Yes many of you are right that the V-team forum will continue on because of Hal’s name and TP and it should look at all the adverting the sit does. I’m fine with it I hope they all have a great future and that new people have the same experience I had over there. For me it is time to move on and as Hal would say “Change is good!”

Some say it is working better, I really don’t think so, it is still a pain in the ass to logon and I really don’t see that much pick-up in speed and it has been OVER A MONTH. This site has not been up for a week yet and look at all the changes for the better and advice Matt has taken from us to make it better! Sure one can say “Well Schuey you were getting it for free?” Yeah well just because I’m not paying for it doesn’t mean It’s free. Plus who’s to say that I’m not helping TP or Hal to make money? The way I look at it is that myself and everyone else on that site was free advertising for TP and more so Hal. How many times did you pass the word on to others about go to the V-Team Forum what a great place for running information or how many times did you tell people to use a Hal Higdon training program they are great for all different levels of runners? Ok so maybe everyone didn’t do that so you were getting the site truly for free but for me and many others we promoted TP/Hal and help put money in their pocket.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR I’M NOT HERE TO BASH HAL! AGAIN I’M NOT HERE TO BASH Hal. I also felt that Hal had is good days and bad days with people on his forum. Yes I’m thankful that he answered peoples questions and that the site was offered to all of us. Then again I was also tired of being treated like a child at times and had to worry about what I was going to say in a post. And if by what I said or did would I be getting a PM telling me I was “Red Carded”!

With that being said being a business person myself, Hal had good reason to answer questions and to partner up with TP and that was to promote himself, his books and programs to make money. Again I love that, that is a America baby. Being able to make money by doing what you love. For Hal that is writing books and talking running. So were am I’m going with this and what does this have to do with being at the V-team forums vs being here?
Well for me I never felt like I had to be loyal to Hal or TP. Sure they offered the site and I’m thankful for that because I met all you wonderful people that share the love for running. I didn’t join the V-Team because of Hal Higdon. I joined because I googled “stress fracture” and when checking out all the sites one of the selections was a thread on the V-team and I read it and that was in 2005. I never posted to the site until after Chicago 2007 to back my city and race that I love. It was then I started to meet people on the site. It was ALL of YOU were my LOYALTY IS! It is you my fellow runners that have help me become the person and runner that I am today. Yep I know I know but if Hal’s site wasn’t there it would have never happen so my loyalty should be there. I still say no, it could have been this site if it was around, it could have been runwhatever.com
Really it was you my fellow runners that I shared the good times, races good or bad and other things in life not Hal or TP.

I really have a lot of thoughts about this and I’m not really sure if any of this is making any sense or if I can even put into words how I feel and what else is on my mind. I guess you could say that I’m more of a people’s person and I like to be face to face with people. I have never been good at writing things or getting my point across in the right way. I really hope that you all don’t take this the wrong way and I’m not trying to be mean or bad talk anyone. I’m just trying to express how I feel about this.

Anyway to finish this off I feel the same way as others the internet is a big place and there are many sites. I don’t think anyone should be loyal to just one site. Heck I’m not even loyal to one training plan. The only thing that we have to be loyal to in life is ourselves, loved ones and our closes friends. So with that being said my loyalty is going be right here with all people that have help make my experience in running what it is today and who have cared to listen to me over all these years.

So I hope that TP/Hal continue get users and achieve all that they want to achieve as people and as a business. Going forward I want to be here and help make this place grow and be a great running community not only for us but for future users.

Again I’m not good at putting my thoughts down in writing so things might be all over the place and I’m sorry about that. Also I don’t even know if I made any sense in what I just said but I do know how I feel and that is I feel great that I’m at a site that cares and all my closest running friends are here. I will go were ever you all are!

Mr MattM wrote:

Bob wrote:

By no means am I intending to tell people how to run a website here, but just adding in a couple cents on something that might want to be discussed in a thread somewhere.

I appreciate the insight, Bob. It's something I mentioned to Dave as we discussed the option of creating a new site. One difference here is that we needed a reliable place to interact that wasn't subject to the whims of trainingpeaks. We have that now, and people are free to post here, there, and everywhere. It might be possible, with some focus and dedication, to create a site that attracts people outside of the HH world. Will that happen? I dunno. What is it that we really want (collectively)? I want a place for runners to come and find like-minded people who will discuss topics and answer questions... and let their hair down (metaphorically, as I have little left!).

I am interested in what others think this site should be. Is it a place for 'us', or for others, too. What is our niche in the vastness of the interwebz....???

Since posting this I see that Matt already started a thread on the future of this site. So I will check that out and express my feelings on that also.

Schuey wrote:Well I’ll say it again I love the format of this new site and I love the openest we have here. It’s day and night! Sure Matt is open to hearing what we have to say to shape this site and he has made changes to the site do to our suggestion. One could say that is because “it’s a new site”, sure but I think it has more to do about how he looks at business and the end user. I feel that Matt and Dave wanted to give us and future people a place were we can share our love for running but at the same time really feel a part of it. In my mind that is something that Hal and TP should had thought about, listening more to their customer. Not saying the customer is always right. Over at TP I truly felt like we were beating our heads on a wall. My memory is not going to be short, how many times were we told we are working on it? People are on vacation, DEAL WITH IT THIS IS HOW IT IS GOING TO BE? To me this is one of the biggest reasons why I left. Sure TP is the one making the changes not Hal but since some feel that you owe loyalty to Hal for everything, were was Hal’s loyalty to us for everything that we did for the V-Team?

My view is that Hal offered the forum but it truly is the people who contribute to the site that make it what it is. Like Bob said the site was a close niche group before all of us and they left for what reasons? Maybe some of the same reason why we left. Then later in time came our group of people that ended up having a great time and brought a lot to the V-Team. Do you see were I’m going with this it’s not one person that makes a great site or wonderful environment, it is the WHOLE everyone makes a site, family, etc. a great thing. In my view if Hal really cared for us and what we had, I would have thought he would have fought harder for us and would have understood or dislike more. Then again he has been down this road before were he just let a lot of people leave and felt he will get a new group. And yes with all of us leaving, I’m sure he feels the same way. Why? Because his loyalty is not with us! It is with TP and himself to make money! I know it sounds really cold but TP/Hal are business people and they are in this to make money not have warm feelings of friendships. Yes many of you are right that the V-team forum will continue on because of Hal’s name and TP and it should look at all the adverting the sit does. I’m fine with it I hope they all have a great future and that new people have the same experience I had over there. For me it is time to move on and as Hal would say “Change is good!”

Some say it is working better, I really don’t think so, it is still a pain in the ass to logon and I really don’t see that much pick-up in speed and it has been OVER A MONTH. This site has not been up for a week yet and look at all the changes for the better and advice Matt has taken from us to make it better! Sure one can say “Well Schuey you were getting it for free?” Yeah well just because I’m not paying for it doesn’t mean It’s free. Plus who’s to say that I’m not helping TP or Hal to make money? The way I look at it is that myself and everyone else on that site was free advertising for TP and more so Hal. How many times did you pass the word on to others about go to the V-Team Forum what a great place for running information or how many times did you tell people to use a Hal Higdon training program they are great for all different levels of runners? Ok so maybe everyone didn’t do that so you were getting the site truly for free but for me and many others we promoted TP/Hal and help put money in their pocket.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR I’M NOT HERE TO BASH HAL! AGAIN I’M NOT HERE TO BASH Hal. I also felt that Hal had is good days and bad days with people on his forum. Yes I’m thankful that he answered peoples questions and that the site was offered to all of us. Then again I was also tired of being treated like a child at times and had to worry about what I was going to say in a post. And if by what I said or did would I be getting a PM telling me I was “Red Carded”!

With that being said being a business person myself, Hal had good reason to answer questions and to partner up with TP and that was to promote himself, his books and programs to make money. Again I love that, that is a America baby. Being able to make money by doing what you love. For Hal that is writing books and talking running. So were am I’m going with this and what does this have to do with being at the V-team forums vs being here?
Well for me I never felt like I had to be loyal to Hal or TP. Sure they offered the site and I’m thankful for that because I met all you wonderful people that share the love for running. I didn’t join the V-Team because of Hal Higdon. I joined because I googled “stress fracture” and when checking out all the sites one of the selections was a thread on the V-team and I read it and that was in 2005. I never posted to the site until after Chicago 2007 to back my city and race that I love. It was then I started to meet people on the site. It was ALL of YOU were my LOYALTY IS! It is you my fellow runners that have help me become the person and runner that I am today. Yep I know I know but if Hal’s site wasn’t there it would have never happen so my loyalty should be there. I still say no, it could have been this site if it was around, it could have been runwhatever.com
Really it was you my fellow runners that I shared the good times, races good or bad and other things in life not Hal or TP.

I really have a lot of thoughts about this and I’m not really sure if any of this is making any sense or if I can even put into words how I feel and what else is on my mind. I guess you could say that I’m more of a people’s person and I like to be face to face with people. I have never been good at writing things or getting my point across in the right way. I really hope that you all don’t take this the wrong way and I’m not trying to be mean or bad talk anyone. I’m just trying to express how I feel about this.

Anyway to finish this off I feel the same way as others the internet is a big place and there are many sites. I don’t think anyone should be loyal to just one site. Heck I’m not even loyal to one training plan. The only thing that we have to be loyal to in life is ourselves, loved ones and our closes friends. So with that being said my loyalty is going be right here with all people that have help make my experience in running what it is today and who have cared to listen to me over all these years.

So I hope that TP/Hal continue get users and achieve all that they want to achieve as people and as a business. Going forward I want to be here and help make this place grow and be a great running community not only for us but for future users.

Again I’m not good at putting my thoughts down in writing so things might be all over the place and I’m sorry about that. Also I don’t even know if I made any sense in what I just said but I do know how I feel and that is I feel great that I’m at a site that cares and all my closest running friends are here. I will go were ever you all are!

Mr MattM wrote:

Bob wrote:

By no means am I intending to tell people how to run a website here, but just adding in a couple cents on something that might want to be discussed in a thread somewhere.

I appreciate the insight, Bob. It's something I mentioned to Dave as we discussed the option of creating a new site. One difference here is that we needed a reliable place to interact that wasn't subject to the whims of trainingpeaks. We have that now, and people are free to post here, there, and everywhere. It might be possible, with some focus and dedication, to create a site that attracts people outside of the HH world. Will that happen? I dunno. What is it that we really want (collectively)? I want a place for runners to come and find like-minded people who will discuss topics and answer questions... and let their hair down (metaphorically, as I have little left!).

I am interested in what others think this site should be. Is it a place for 'us', or for others, too. What is our niche in the vastness of the interwebz....???

Since posting this I see that Matt already started a thread on the future of this site. So I will check that out and express my feelings on that also.

Martin, I could not have said one word better myself. You spoke for both of us when you wrote what you wrote. I agree 100% with you, great job expressing your thoughts so well! I loved reading it!

Seth Harrison wrote:The mass migration over to this site has little to do with Hal (I believe). TP has made it just too difficult to stay active over on Hal's forums by relegating his site to second tier status...Without knowing the inside politics, I feel bad for Hal for how TP seems to have handled things. As others have said though, Hal's name alone has enough cache to continue to attract new folks.

I think this is exactly right. And honestly, I feel bad for Hal. He and I emailed each other right before this site went live, and he shared with me some of the emails he had been receiving from TP. And without going into too much detail, they were playing him for a fool, and he didnt see it.

They assumed he didnt know anything about the technology of the site and how things worked, so they tried to use this to convince him that their pages HAD TO be listed before his. They also simply brushed off the speed issue, said they couldnt replicate the speed issues in testing, and that it was just the users who were the problem.

So I think he was between a rock and a hard place, and they'll continue to use his name, but denigrate his boards to second-tier status in their system. Its too bad, because reading Hal's book helped get me into running, and the insights from that place have been priceless to me as a runner. He's just stuck in a bad situation right now

Dave-O wrote:

As for Hal, I still consider him an unforgettable source of information and a key contributor to my learning curve as a runner. I'll never forget that. At the same, he has a business to run as well and needs to attract new customers. Again, nothing wrong with that. Given that Hal is the reason most of us know each other, this isn't going to be a place where bashing him is allowed. I just won't tolerate it.

Amen to that, even though I don't know who I amen to.

Hal's program served me well for a long time. Even now I don't use Hal's programs, I still exercise quite some principles I learned from his program and instruction. For that I owe him always.

The TP forum issue is a technical matter, out of Hal's hand.

Ken Mello wrote: He's just stuck in a bad situation right now

Jerry wrote:

The TP forum issue is a technical matter, out of Hal's hand.

With all due respect, I disagree. While these conversations are better had in person, as to alleviate any sort of misconstruing in point, I would still like to post my opinion - it's just that...an opinion.

Yes, as others have mentioned, Hal has been an invaluable resource to many, myself included at one time. Yes, he played a role in the bigger picture in bringing many of us together. However, that goes to the old adage, "you can lead a horse to water....." he lead us to water, but we're the ones that drank. That's why we are all here now.

With regard to Hal being in a bad situation and it being out of Hal's hand, that's not entirely true. It was/is a business decision; one that can/could've been corrected. I'm not going to attempt to delve into all of the different avenues, ideas, etc., as really, it's not my place.

Just wondering....You think Hal knows about this board?

Dave Bussard wrote:Just wondering....You think Hal knows about this board?

He's already posted here, I believe.

Was that him? HalH posted something about buying a training plan but I assumed it was a joke.

Julie wrote:Was that him? HalH posted something about buying a training plan but I assumed it was a joke.

I thought it was too

I posted in thread before and I have a lot of thoughts about it, so I thought I would post a little more.

First, I completely understand Hal's need to highly moderate the V-Team forums. He is in the business of selling training programs and books about running. He uses the forums as an extension of that business in several ways. Users of his programs can visit the site and ask him questions. Whether Hal answers them, or the community does, the perception to the user of his programs is that Hal provided a valuable service. He also used the site as a marketing tool. Use my program and access my forums for answers, and word-of-month marketing. We've all steered new runners towards Hal's programs and the site. Why? Because for new runners, Hal's programs simply work.

Since the site is a marketing tool, Hal needs to protect the (his) Brand. If new runners came to the site and saw offensive content, attacks on others, rudeness, etc., they would get turned off and it would tarnish the Brand. This was one reason Hal would get mad about questions on Pfitz's plans. He is not marketing Pfitz, he is marketing Hal.

At times though I thought he went overboard. I have a tendency to speak my mind, or being online, type my mind. If I disagree with something, I'll tend to say I disagree. There were many times when I disagreed with Hal and had posts deleted and received numerous PMs with 'red cards' and threats of banishment from HIS forums.

Second, Training Peaks is a business. They sell a fitness community for runners and cyclists to log workouts, track their training, purchase coaching plans, etc. They want paid registered users, that's their business model. I have nothing against it. It is their business and their ideas. They don't make money from Hal selling a book. They don't make money from Hal using a free message board to market his books. I'm sure they get a cut from his online interactive training programs, but that is not their goal. They would be much happier if they converted all of Hal's free users to paid Training Peaks users.

So whatever changes they were making to Training Peaks that negatively impacted the free V-Team forums is really not that important to them. I feel sorry for Hal if what Ken said was true about TP playing him and not taking care of his interests. But again, it is their business to develop and Hal was just an add-on to help them out while they were growing.

I don't fault Training Peaks for what they did as I'm sure it was in their best interests as a business.

I'll leave it with just one more.

Third, I echo many peoples sentiments about Hal himself. When I started running I didn't have any idea what I was doing. A colleague said he ran a marathon every year and that if I started training for a race, it would give my attempts at running some direction. He used Hal's plans and pointed me to Hal's website (not the forums). I checked out the plans and bought a couple of his books. I started in on the forums and had many different people answer my stupid questions. Hal answered some, but I remember Matt answering most of them.

Hal's plans got me through my first marathon. I continue to suggest Hal's plans for those that ask me about starting to run, or are interested in moving up from 5Ks to the marathon.

Through Hal's forums, I've met some amazing people. I've had to opportunity to meet several in the real world, and not just at races. I've stayed at Lisa's house, crashed at RJ's before a race, and I've experienced an awesome Anke and Stephen dinner at Anke's home. Matt W crashed in my basement when he was driving back to Vegas.

Most importantly for me, I met my wife through Hal's forums.

Hal's V-Team boards have impacted my life permanently. Far more than most users of Hal's site.

So while I am grateful for what his site has done for me, both as a runner and a person, I don't feel like I am obligated to have a sense of loyalty to Hal the business or to Training Peaks or for them to have an obligation to meet my needs. I am not a paid Training Peaks customer and Hal does not owe me anything. I used Hal's site as he intended it to be, an extension of his training plans, and I returned to Hal what he was after, word-of-mouth advertising for those same plans.

I am not bashing Hal or Training Peaks, they have a business to run and their loyalties are rightfully towards optimizing those businesses. I'm sorry that Training Peaks may be running over Hal, but they both need to make choices to maximize their income. Like Hal pointed out to me more than once, it is HIS site, not mine. And while many here may have considered themselves Hal's customers that should be listened to, unless you were paying for his interactive training programs, you really weren't a customer. You were simply part of his marketing team.

So if you want to continue posting at Hal's, please do. But remember what those forums are for - supporting the Hal brand and his training programs. All done through Training Peaks who want you to pay to use their service. It was never OUR community.

Tim M wrote:
I've stayed at Lisa's house, crashed at RJ's before a race, and I've experienced an awesome Anke and Stephen dinner at Anke's home. Matt W crashed in my basement when he was driving back to Vegas.

When I reread this after posting it, it reminded me of the speech in Tommy Boy after Tommy saves the company.

Ever since i was a kid, you people have been like a family to me.
Louis, we built our first fort together.
And Danny, remember when we used to burn ants with a magnifying glass?
R.T., i lost my virginity to your daughter, for crying out loud!
Rob, you were there.

Tim M wrote:

Tim M wrote:
I've stayed at Lisa's house, crashed at RJ's before a race, and I've experienced an awesome Anke and Stephen dinner at Anke's home. Matt W crashed in my basement when he was driving back to Vegas.

When I reread this after posting it, it reminded me of the speech in Tommy Boy after Tommy saves the company.

Ever since i was a kid, you people have been like a family to me.
Louis, we built our first fort together.
And Danny, remember when we used to burn ants with a magnifying glass?
R.T., i lost my virginity to your daughter, for crying out loud!
Rob, you were there.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Awesome, Tim, awesome! Hahahaha! Great movie.

Thanks for your post Tim. You did a much better job expressing what I was trying to say. Like I said I have always been better at talking to people in person rather then writing. Just not good and communicating online. Maybe some day I will get better at it.

Schuey wrote:Thanks for your post Tim. You did a much better job expressing what I was trying to say. Like I said I have always been better at talking to people in person rather then writing. Just not good and communicating online. Maybe some day I will get better at it.

I think that you both did a great job in each of your posts, relaying what needed to be said. Great job guys!

I still post over at Hal's Place ( my blog). I will forever be greatful to Hal for all the wisdom and advice he has given throughout the years. I have been at his site for over 5 years now and still love it. I find this place quite homey. I do hope Hal comes over and joins us by the "potbelly stove". I still think of him as "our" coach.

Dave Bussard wrote:Just wondering....You think Hal knows about this board?

Bob wrote:

Dave Bussard wrote:Just wondering....You think Hal knows about this board?

He's already posted here, I believe.

Julie wrote:Was that him? HalH posted something about buying a training plan but I assumed it was a joke.

I saw the post by HalH and assumed it was probably the real Hal. Hal is on Facebook and is FB friends with most of us. He's made comments on some of my status posts, so, yes, he probably knows about this site. More than one of us posted links to it on Facebook.

No, it was not Hal. I seriously doubt he will post here.

Mr MattM wrote:No, it was not Hal. I seriously doubt he will post here.

Bob wrote:I also love this new format. I was having a hell of a time figuring out the new TP's changes. In fact, I couldn't access it from work or from my phone. I thought I was the only one that was so frustrated, I gave up trying to figure it out.

That said, I do have mixed feelings having all of us leave Hal. A number of years ago a similar mass exodus happened when many V-Teamers left his boards. A few stayed, some came back, others never returned. Many of those people still remain friends. Since I have been fortunate to have met so many great people through Hal's boards, I've always been appreciative and felt a loyalty to Hal. I'll probably find myself still checking out what he's got going on, who he's attracting over there and occasionally posting some useless comments that I'm good for.

One of the issues that can happen, not having Hal, is attracting new users. When the last group left and started tapermadness.com, everyone was gung ho to have our own place. We had the logo, the hats, the pamphlets to add to race packets and signs for cars at races, but membership was slow to grow. As time went on, much of the talk changed from running to other topics, people stopped running for whatever reason, some began to leave, and the membership began to dwindle. It's still a fun place to waste some time and chat with friends, but definitely has changed from what it was intended to be at the startup.

By no means am I intending to tell people how to run a website here, but just adding in a couple cents on something that might want to be discussed in a thread somewhere.

+1 (Well except for the useless quotes. I, too, was/am a part of tapermadness.org, and I have actually known Bob, GregC, Farnk, Liz, and others for several years. I consider them good running friends which they might not consider me as, but that's ok.)