Marathon pacing question

I'm running the LA Marathon next Sunday. I've only completed one, in 4:22, and dnf'd 2 others when I tried to go sub 4 in less than ideal conditions. My plan was to go out very conservatively, run nice and easy for 20 miles, run a negative split and hopefully finish with something left in the tank. I looked at the course map and actually drove the first few miles of the course. It is MUCH more downhill the first couple of miles than I had realized. Here is the course map:

http://www.lamarathon.com/event/course-map/

I really want to force myself to go slow at first, but miles .5 to 2.5 are really downhill and I kind of feel like it would be a waste to not bank some time here. I'm only shooting for 4:10 or so, so do I forget the terrain and run these slow, or take advantage of the downhill and bank a little time here?
I feel like I could run these at an easy effort yet still at a faster than planned first 20 mile pace, and still be able to slow down after. I guess my question is, do I run these by pace or by effort???

I don't run hills,but the way I understand is we don't necessarily need to run fast to take advantage of the downhill, we could run easier with the same pace to take advantage of the downhill too. Then as I said, I don't run hills and what do I know?

On pace or effort, my view is assuming on flat or even difficult course, we need the ability to run even pace before we can try even effort, which is the ultimate skill. Think about it, at least the first half of the race, even pace equals even effort. So if we can't run even pace, we are not ready for even effort yet.

Then again, what do I know about racing?

Given your bad luck with marathons, I'd advise that you NOT try to bank time early on. Keep to your planned pace and bank energy and glycogen for later in the race, when you'll need it. Better to be a little cautious early on and be smiling for the finish line camera.

Mark B wrote:Given your bad luck with marathons, I'd advise that you NOT try to bank time early on. Keep to your planned pace and bank energy and glycogen for later in the race, when you'll need it. Better to be a little cautious early on and be smiling for the finish line camera.

This.

Also, that downhill is going to murder your quads if you let it rip down it.

Run by effort, not pace. You should go a little faster on the downhill stretches because that's when gravity is your friend. Just run comfortable, a little on the easy side, and don't worry about pace.

Mr MattM wrote:Run by effort, not pace. You should go a little faster on the downhill stretches because that's when gravity is your friend. Just run comfortable, a little on the easy side, and don't worry about pace.

Given Tim's propensity for blowing up in marathons, I would suggest that his pace-o-meter might not be correctly calibrated, so strict adherence to the Garmin for the first half may be wise. Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't try to bank time either. It rarely works. Instead be thankful that the 'easy' downhill miles should take less out of you from a cardiovascular standpoint. Hopefully that will allow you to maintain an even pace from miles 20-26 when it gets tough.

I don't advise running by effort either early because with a taper the effort won't match what you feel in training. Rely on your Garmin.

If you're not running a bit faster on the downhill stretches you're effectively 'braking' and that can take a bigger toll on you than just going with the terrain.

If you pace by effort, and are honest about running comfortably on the easy side, you should do fine. Watching your pace on your wrist means absolutely nothing. How you feel is ALWAYS a better indicator than numbers. My effort level at a given pace changes based on lots of variables. If I pace by numbers I run a greater risk of either blowing up, or under-performing. If I pace by effort I can make in-race adjustments to keep it where it needs to be.

How often do we see people come back from a race having blown up, but always saying how their training indicated they could run 'x' time? Again, pace means nothing in a race. Effort means everything.

Mr MattM wrote:If you're not running a bit faster on the downhill stretches you're effectively 'braking' and that can take a bigger toll on you than just going with the terrain.

If you pace by effort, and are honest about running comfortably on the easy side, you should do fine. Watching your pace on your wrist means absolutely nothing. How you feel is ALWAYS a better indicator than numbers. My effort level at a given pace changes based on lots of variables. If I pace by numbers I run a greater risk of either blowing up, or under-performing. If I pace by effort I can make in-race adjustments to keep it where it needs to be.

How often do we see people come back from a race having blown up, but always saying how their training indicated they could run 'x' time? Again, pace means nothing in a race. Effort means everything.

Matt - you have a lot more race experience. While I agree effort is key for an experienced marathon racer it means less to someone who doesn't yet know what effort they can manage for 26.2 miles.

And the 'braking' argument doesn't really apply either here because we are not talking about marathon pace versus a really easy, slow pace. We are talking about slowing by 10-15 sec per mile most likely.

I always run hills based on effort, but doing that is one of my particular strengths. I love rolling courses because I am quite good at going up really slow and going down relaxed and faster and it all evens out over time without any given muscle group getting over taxed.

But, given your description of past marathons, I agree with those that say to go by pace and not effort. Otherwise you risk running those downhills too fast instead of at an easy relaxed effort, which will toast your quads and also make you burn too much fuel early. It is a fine line between running too fast down a hill and running it at the right effort that will make it faster yet not burn you out. And downhills feel so easy that it is easy to mess it up and overrun them .

The braking comment from Matt is something I would normally agree with too though. I say aim to run slow, but stay as relaxed as possible on the down parts. You want to run them at a slow pace, but not feel like you are artificially "braking". But unless the hills are fairly steep running them based on pace shouldn't be that hard. I usually only encounter that braking sensation/issue on steeper hills.

I'd say don't over think this thing. I like what Matt said about running by effort not your watch. The watch can help you learn what you're capable of during your training, use it sparingly. You naturally will run faster downhill and slower uphill. The downhill coming early in the race with all the adrenaline pumping should be a concern, so just try and relax and find a comfortable rhythm and stick with it, good luck Sunday, Tim!

Run based on Effort or a Heart Rate Monitor if you know your particulars (you have used it in training).
When the course flattens out, slow a bit - remember effort.

Running faster because of early downhills isn't banking, as you will normally give this back on the uphills (and more) if the course is neutral elevation.

I'm one who would forget about the hills and run by my watch in the early miles - if the hills are significant, then maintain a constant effort as others have said. My most successful marathons have been run using a 6 mile cutdown where I (try) run the first 2 miles at 30 sec slower than MP, the next 2 at 20 sec slower, the next 2 at 10 sec slower, and then you end up at mile 6-7 at MP. This is hard to do with downhill miles and when I've used it at Boston, I simply maintained the effort that associated with those times and let gravity do the rest.

One piece of advice that I received about a year ago was to look at bib numbers and make sure that those behind you are passing you in the first 3-4 miles. You will get them back at 15K.

Good luck, Tim. Whatever you choose, do not deliberating bank time. It simply doesn't work for 99% of us.

Thanks all. Pretty much what I thought. I'll run those downhill miles easy, which should wind up a little faster than goal pace, but at less than goal effort.
Michele, that cutdown you suggest is exactly what I wanted to do until I drove those first few miles. I like the idea of making sure I'm being passed early on.

Ben Z wrote:

Matt - you have a lot more race experience. While I agree effort is key for an experienced marathon racer it means less to someone who doesn't yet know what effort they can manage for 26.2 miles.

And the 'braking' argument doesn't really apply either here because we are not talking about marathon pace versus a really easy, slow pace. We are talking about slowing by 10-15 sec per mile most likely.

See, I'd say same thing in reverse... most of the less experienced marathon runners don't know what pace they can manage for 26.2 miles. I'd much rather preach that even less experienced marathon runners focus on effort... especially in training. However, it's a numbers game for most... everyone want to run a certain goal time so they try to key all of their workouts around some specific paces. On race day they figure out what 'strategy' they will use to finish within their goal time. Just based on your personal observations of yourself and others, how well does that tend to work out? Too many variables at work... with weather factors being the most obvious.

All that said, I ran by watch for a long, long time and didn't get the importance of effort. It may just be something that works for me and not for everybody else. And that's ok.

The important thing is that Tim is going to run a great race!

I run by effort but in the first few miles tell myself to not go too fast. Then I just aim to settle into a comfortable, sustainable pace. I'm not fast but I am steady and it doesn't come from looking at a watch.

slow early. if you plan to negative split, then take advantage of the downhill and "bank energy" not time.

Interesting comments, Matt. I generally "race" a marathon by a combination of effort (HR) and time. As you stated, we generally train around a certain time goal, so that is usually part of my game plan going in. And also as you correctly stated, there are many factors that can change that goal before and during the race.

If fit, I have had a lot of success using a MP mile time and paying attention to my watch. I also pay attention to my HR as it is often an indication of how my body is responding. Since I have a habit of peaking a bit too early, monitoring my HR helps me assess where I am with regards to that. I'm usually pretty successful with the method although I have and can get carried away like I did in NY heading up 1st Ave (and I should have known better). However, my strategies worked very well at Boston last year in the heat where I adjusted from the get go, walked through water stops to make sure I was properly hydrated, and ran a 4 hr race.

I guess after 39 marathons, I have a better handle on my body, but I still make rookie mistakes even though I shouldn't. This year since I know that I am not where I would like to be yet, I will use a more conservative MP than I am using in training as my fitness level is not optimum.

Well.... how'd it go?

If I guessed your last name correctly, it looks like you did pretty well! In fact, really, really, REALLY well!

But I'll let you share.

Yes, it went really, REALLY well. I'll post a report soon.
Tossed a few St Pattys Day cold ones back this afternoon. Time for bed......

Tim C wrote:Yes, it went really, REALLY well. I'll post a report soon.
Tossed a few St Pattys Day cold ones back this afternoon. Time for bed......

Woohoo!!