Re: California here we come...

Michele "1L" Keane Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:32 pm

Joe says, "Go Nancy Go!" too.

ounce Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:44 pm

Here's the link to set up the Athlete Tracker.
https://register.chronotrack.com/event/tracking/eventID/23616

Nancy's bib number is 7297
Michael's bib number is 9286

I won't be able to do a Boston-style tracking at all.

Michele "1L" Keane Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Just got a text from Nancy. She is a DNF, but she is ok. I'll let her supply any details. Just wanted you all to know that she is good and fine.

KBFitz Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:01 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Just got a text from Nancy. She is a DNF, but she is ok. I'll let her supply any details. Just wanted you all to know that she is good and fine.

Thanks 1L. 20 miles complete at a nice clip -- good to know she's ok.

Mark B Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:58 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Just got a text from Nancy. She is a DNF, but she is ok. I'll let her supply any details. Just wanted you all to know that she is good and fine.

Oh thank goodness. I was getting very worried.

Tim C Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Just got a text from Nancy. She is a DNF, but she is ok. I'll let her supply any details. Just wanted you all to know that she is good and fine.

Good to hear as I was getting concerned.

ounce Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:33 pm

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Just got a text from Nancy. She is a DNF, but she is ok. I'll let her supply any details. Just wanted you all to know that she is good and fine.

nkrichards Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:20 pm

Hi all. We just got home from California. Thanks for your encouragement before the race and your concern during/after the race. Health wise I think I'm fine. I am way more sore than I should be and I'm baffled as to why things went so bad so quickly. I trained well, tapered well, paced well, hydrated and fueled well...and the wheels just fell off way to early. I put more miles in during 2016 than I ever have before. I should have been better prepared than ever before! I know dropping when I did was the right choice but I'm really struggling with this. I've never quit anything in my life!!

I'll be in touch with Dr. B and see if we can figure out if the cause was medical...residual heart damage or medication related...or if it was a mental thing. And then I'll decide what to do next.

Thanks again...it's nice to have a place to "talk".

ounce Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:18 pm

The soreness I can understand, however I can't give an opinion on the DNF. I would imagine is a combination of all of your 2nd paragraph. Enjoy your resting on a tractor and paying bills 'n payroll.

Mark B Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:40 pm

That sounds so frustrating, but you made the right decision. Glad you made it.

As to why the wheels fell off so totally, you may never know. It certainly could be heart or medicine related, but it could have been any of a number of other things. Maybe we can look back and help you figure it out.

I'm glad you're okay (if disappointed), and that you're back in the friendly confines of our little patch of internet.

Recover well, and stay warm! It's nippy out.

nkrichards Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:44 am

ounce wrote:The soreness I can understand, however I can't give an opinion on the DNF. I would imagine is a combination of all of your 2nd paragraph. Enjoy your resting on a tractor and paying bills 'n payroll.

Mark B wrote:That sounds so frustrating, but you made the right decision. Glad you made it.

As to why the wheels fell off so totally, you may never know. It certainly could be heart or medicine related, but it could have been any of a number of other things. Maybe we can look back and help you figure it out.

I'm glad you're okay (if disappointed), and that you're back in the friendly confines of our little patch of internet.

Recover well, and stay warm! It's nippy out.

Thanks Doug and Mark. Feeling less sore every day. Still not understanding why things went so bad so quickly but getting closer to accepting and moving on.

Here's my splits...

1   10:00
2     9:45
3     9:48
4     9:59
5     9:55
6    10:00
7     9:47
8    10:03
9    10:06
10    9:52
11    9:50
12    9:50
13    9:56
14   10:01
15   10:00
16     9:51
17   10:02
18   10:04
19   13:16
20   14:28

Family was there to meet me shortly after the 20 mile mark. I stuck right with the pacers through mile 18. It was getting more difficult in mile 17 and 18 but they just pulled away in mile 19 and I couldn't respond. I didn't think it was prudent to continue for another hour plus. Maybe I just got scared.

I was able to message Dr. B. He doesn't think my problem was heart or medication related. He is/was also a marathon runner so has more understanding of the situation than most. He sees no reason why I can't try again if I decide to. I have an appointment in January so will talk to him in more detail then.

A couple thoughts.

Did I swim to much? I wouldn't think that would be a problem as I swam in addition to running not instead of running. As I mentioned earlier I put in more miles in 2016 than I ever have before.
I was pretty nervous about the fact that I hadn't gone more than 20 miles since Boston. In addition I hadn't gone more than 13 at MP. Those training runs had all gone well...except for the heat related issues during that one summer run.
My HR had been up the week or more before the race...?
I hadn't been sleeping well.
I have to admit I was really nervous.
Maybe I wanted this a bit to much. Edited to add...or maybe I didn't want this enough!

Anyway...it appears that this was a nice training run for whatever I decide to do next. We're in an icebox here for the next few days so it's a good time to recover.

On the positive side. My oldest son, Gary, completed his first marathon...on little to no training. He crashed hard but finished in 4:04:24...a few seconds slower than my PR Very Happy

The kids all did well with their relay legs. Gary now has the bug and wants to run another. Kevin...who has 2 marathons under his belt and was the one who got me started...is also thinking about running another.

Royce...youngest grandchild...broke his arm. We're expecting another grandchild in June. I'm extremely lucky to live so close to all the kids/grandkids. I'm also very appreciative of the running/active community that I'm a part of.

Ultreya...

ounce Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:08 pm

nkrichards wrote:
ounce wrote:The soreness I can understand, however I can't give an opinion on the DNF. I would imagine is a combination of all of your 2nd paragraph. Enjoy your resting on a tractor and paying bills 'n payroll.

Mark B wrote:That sounds so frustrating, but you made the right decision. Glad you made it.

As to why the wheels fell off so totally, you may never know. It certainly could be heart or medicine related, but it could have been any of a number of other things. Maybe we can look back and help you figure it out.

I'm glad you're okay (if disappointed), and that you're back in the friendly confines of our little patch of internet.

Recover well, and stay warm! It's nippy out.

Thanks Doug and Mark. Feeling less sore every day. Still not understanding why things went so bad so quickly but getting closer to accepting and moving on.

Here's my splits...

1   10:00
2     9:45
3     9:48
4     9:59
5     9:55
6    10:00
7     9:47
8    10:03
9    10:06
10    9:52
11    9:50
12    9:50
13    9:56
14   10:01
15   10:00
16     9:51
17   10:02
18   10:04
19   13:16
20   14:28

Family was there to meet me shortly after the 20 mile mark. I stuck right with the pacers through mile 18. It was getting more difficult in mile 17 and 18 but they just pulled away in mile 19 and I couldn't respond. I didn't think it was prudent to continue for another hour plus. Maybe I just got scared.

I was able to message Dr. B. He doesn't think my problem was heart or medication related. He is/was also a marathon runner so has more understanding of the situation than most. He sees no reason why I can't try again if I decide to. I have an appointment in January so will talk to him in more detail then.

A couple thoughts.

Did I swim to much? I wouldn't think that would be a problem as I swam in addition to running not instead of running. As I mentioned earlier I put in more miles in 2016 than I ever have before.
I was pretty nervous about the fact that I hadn't gone more than 20 miles since Boston. In addition I hadn't gone more than 13 at MP. Those training runs had all gone well...except for the heat related issues during that one summer run.
My HR had been up the week or more before the race...?
I hadn't been sleeping well.
I have to admit I was really nervous.
Maybe I wanted this a bit to much. Edited to add...or maybe I didn't want this enough!

Anyway...it appears that this was a nice training run for whatever I decide to do next. We're in an icebox here for the next few days so it's a good time to recover.

On the positive side. My oldest son, Gary, completed his first marathon...on little to no training. He crashed hard but finished in 4:04:24...a few seconds slower than my PR    The kids all did well with their relay legs. Gary now has the bug and wants to run another. Kevin...who has 2 marathons under his belt and was the one who got me started...is also thinking about running another.

Royce...youngest grandchild...broke his arm. We're expecting another grandchild in June. I'm extremely lucky to live so close to all the kids/grandkids. I'm also very appreciative of the running/active community that I'm a part of.

Ultreya...

Wo to those that get the bug, for they are revenue to PT's and doctors.

Well, since this is a multiple choice test...
A couple thoughts.

Did I swim to much? I wouldn't think that would be a problem as I swam in addition to running not instead of running. As I mentioned earlier I put in more miles in 2016 than I ever have before. Partial DING! I couldn't do CrossFit and marathon training because I was too tired. Maybe your muscles never recovered from all your activities.
I was pretty nervous about the fact that I hadn't gone more than 20 miles since Boston. In addition I hadn't gone more than 13 at MP. Those training runs had all gone well...except for the heat related issues during that one summer run.
My HR had been up the week or more before the race...? This is a result.
I hadn't been sleeping well. This is a result.
I have to admit I was really nervous. DING! I think you wanted to live more than you wanted to finish, which is not bad. After all, you're rather fond of your offspring and hubby.
Maybe I wanted this a bit to much. Edited to add...or maybe I didn't want this enough! Doubt it.

Michele "1L" Keane Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:19 pm

Mark may be on to something in that your data shows signs of overtraining especially the higher than normal HR and lack of sleep. Of course, those things (in my experience) can also be due to hormonal stuff (for me especially when my menopausal stuff kicks in) and nerves. I also tend to believe that there may have been a hint of a bit of anxiety/mental anguish that probably was not even apparent to you/me/us/family. I have never been in your situation medically but I have had really bad races that I could attribute to putting to much pressure on myself and succumbing to mental anxiety. Not sure how/if you can get over that one if it is back there in your head. For me, I just ended up running a stealth marathon (told no one) and that seemed to ease my nerves/anxiety/whatever.

Anyway, no matter - you are fine, and now you need to recover. I'm betting on a bit of overtraining especially if your HR is still high and your sleep interrupted.

Mark B Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:45 pm

Nothing like having the wheels fall off at Mile 18. That's so frustrating! Sorry.

I think Doug and Michele have a good point on the possibility of overtraining, but I also wonder about the number of longer runs that you did. You may have simply not conditioned your body to keep going at that higher rate for an extended period of time. If (when) you start getting ready for your next marathon, you might want to put a bit more emphasis on those sorts of runs. It might help. That'd mean more runs of 18+ miles, more MP runs... but also more 3-1 runs where you do the first 3/4 of a 20-miler at a slow run pace and then picking it up in the last five miles to close to MP.

I wish we had HR data for the run. The quick fall-off suggests that you'd blown through your lactate threshold. HR data would help you get a better sense of that.

Either way, since you weren't sure what was going on, dropping was absolutely the right thing to do.

Keep recovering and start plotting your next event!

KBFitz Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:21 am

... 10:00
16 9:51
17 10:02
18 10:04
19 13:16
20 14:28

... It was getting more difficult in mile 17 and 18 but ... in mile 19 ... I couldn't respond.
... Maybe I just got scared.

... I put in more miles in 2016 than I ever have before.
... I hadn't gone more than 20 miles since Boston. ... I hadn't gone more than 13 at MP.
... My HR had been up the week or more before the race ... I hadn't been sleeping well ... I was really nervous.

Relax kiddo. You're just fine! We've all been there, done that. That's where the wheels come off. That's why they say 20 miles is the half-way point in a marathon. Even though you put in more miles than ever before you may not have built up enough stamina (pace over distance). Or was it just a bad day? You may never know. 26.2 is a finicky beast. You shot for the moon. But the stars didn't align ...as they must. You just got scared. You pulled the plug at 20. Frankly, I would have done the same. It was wise to stop if you could not be sure that your heart was not the constraint at the heart of the matter. Consult with Dr. B and get back out there. And may the road rise to meet you.

nkrichards Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:03 pm

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts/ideas/suggestions. I'm trying to figure out the best way to respond without making this post HUGE.

Doug...All good points that have been suggested by many. Overtraining and nerves seem to be the topic of the day.

Michele...That's funny. I thought about trying to train for a marathon without telling anyone. I don't think I could pull it off. The trouble sleeping is pretty much a constant and has been...along with hot flashes for several years but it did get worse the last week. The HR data isn't very good data. The Basis device that Katie got for me was recalled by Intel (battery issues). I was using it to track my resting HR and enjoyed having the data but they shut it down a few months ago. What I had noticed is that my HR was more elevated than it should have been during my runs the last week or 10 days. My Garmin recorded some huge spikes which I attributed to error so I didn't worry much. Hmmm. I checked my BP and resting HR the last two nights and both are right where they should be. Unfortunately I didn't do this before the race. Nerves were definitely a factor.

Mark...I'll spend some time and tally up my runs and take a closer look. I did have 3 20 milers but I may have lacked in the 18-20 mile range. I'll have to take a look but I'm wondering if I wasn't also lacking on the 8-10 mile MP runs. I had some but maybe not as many as I needed. I did do a better job of running negative splits and finishing my runs faster. The dilemma is...was I over trained or under trained...or maybe just poorly trained. Do I run more...run less...run differently...

Kevin...I really struggled with my decision and still do but I am getting closer to accepting the fact that it was the right thing to do on race day. It was right for me and right for my family who were watching on the sidelines. I may never know exactly what went wrong but I've got a chance to make some changes and give it another try.

Thanks again to all of you. I plan to spend more time looking at my training and see if anything stands out. I'll share it if I can. I've connected with Ironheart...a group of cardiac athletes...and they are offering similar thoughts and encouragement. I'm talking to a triathlon friend and Coach Sara (Coach Tim's wife who is still a competitive swimmer and triathlete and has some coaching experience). I'll figure out a goal and put together a plan in the next few weeks.

I will say that I think overtraining is a possibility...I'm just not sure how to know if it was overtraining or undertraining and the answer makes a HUGE difference.

I'm sure that nerves were an issue. I knew my family was scared and as much as I hated to admit it I was to. I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with that as the pressure to finish well is even greater now. This may take some work.

As much as Dr. B tries to reassure me that the meds aren't an issue, they have to be. You can't take meds that slow down your HR, diminish the force it pumps, and blocks it's ability to respond the adrenalin...think race day magic here...and expect to run as well as you would without the meds. That said if I need to take the meds to continue to exercise safely I will. I'll just have to learn from experience what I can and can not do and set appropriate goals.

Thanks for listening...

Ultreya...

ounce Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:23 pm

Good post, Nancy. As far as getting the family on board with your running, it's all about marketing.

Gary or Kevin could run with you, as y'all can. They can assess how you're doing and be proponents for you. Since Gary is faster than you, it could be a recovery run for him, as you do a regular run together.

Also, running a few (no less than 5) 20 mile runs in training and sending them the numbers plus your thoughts (much like you do here), will give objective evidence on how you're really doing. And, of course, do some races, even some with your boys, too.

Just a thought.

nkrichards Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:15 pm

ounce wrote:Good post, Nancy. As far as getting the family on board with your running, it's all about marketing.

Gary or Kevin could run with you, as y'all can. They can assess how you're doing and be proponents for you. Since Gary is faster than you, it could be a recovery run for him, as you do a regular run together.

Also, running a few (no less than 5) 20 mile runs in training and sending them the numbers plus your thoughts (much like you do here), will give objective evidence on how you're really doing. And, of course, do some races, even some with your boys, too.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the thoughts Doug.

I can't really blame the family for being scared...I was to. I guess we all need a bit more time.

I'm hesitant to plan to run with the boys...or anyone else...to much. I have a tendency to push to hard when I do. I don't think I need to push. I think I need to work on slow and steady with some added effort at the end. I do plan on some shorter races this spring. I'll post details later.

I realized that I didn't address Mark's comment about HR data during the race. Unfortunately I decided not to wear my HR monitor. I wasn't comfortable that it was providing accurate readings and I didn't want the added distraction/stress. Kind of wish I had the data now but I don't. I felt very comfortable during the first 15 or so miles. I tended to pull away from the pacer and had to remind myself to stay with him. Fortunately he had a loud booming voice so I could run a couple steps ahead and stay out of the mob following him. So I'm not sure if I ran outside my lactate threshold or not...

I also remembered a thought I often had during training especially early in the cycle and that was that my cardio seemed to be handling the load fine but that my legs were holding me back. I did spend a lot of time biking during base training and I did a lot of swimming this year but I accumulated the total running miles. Another reason to go back and look closer at when/what kind of miles they were.

Good day to stay inside near the fire.

Ultreya...

Tim C Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:09 pm

Nancy,

Glad to hear you are ok. You have to remember: 26.2 is a LONG ways and some days you may just not be feeling it and no reason to run yourself into the ground for nothing. Shutting it down when you're struggling, especially after what you've gone thru, is ok.

I know it can be disappointing, especially after putting in all the work. But tomorrow is another day and you can always run more then...

nkrichards Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:43 am

Tim C wrote:Nancy,

Glad to hear you are ok. You have to remember: 26.2 is a LONG ways and some days you may just not be feeling it and no reason to run yourself into the ground for nothing. Shutting it down when you're struggling, especially after what you've gone thru, is ok.

I know it can be disappointing, especially after putting in all the work. But tomorrow is another day and you can always run more then...

Thanks Tim. I'm starting to put this all in the proper perspective. I do still want to try and figure out what I can/should change when I give it another try. Yes...I am thinking about trying again. I just can't bring myself to give up! I want it to be a more local race without the logistics and commitment associated with traveling to a race. I want it to be much more low key.

Based on the above...thoughts on taking a few easy weeks to recover and then building on the fitness I currently have to prepare for a late May or early June race?

I'm recovering well I think. I went to Pilates last Thursday but was still pretty sore so I modified anything that I didn't think I was ready for. We swam on Friday but I only did half the workout...then we headed to the hot tub and they turned on the slide. It was a fun day and I felt much better afterwards. Swimming is always a good recovery workout for me. I did the full 2350 yard workout yesterday. I felt OK but could tell there was some residual fatigue so I didn't push to hard. The sun was out and it was a beautiful day...above freezing. On my drive home from swimming I toyed with the idea of a short easy run but thought that was a bit much for one day. Then I looked at the weather forecast and headed out for an easy 3 miles. It was gorgeous out and I'm glad I did. I could feel a couple very slight niggles in my right hamstring and right arch...not unusual...and a bit of fatigue in my quads but it felt pretty good and I didn't push to hard.

Here comes the polar vortex...

Ultreya...

Mark B Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:59 pm

Here's a little distraction from your marathon post-mortem.

I was getting my teeth cleaned today when the hygienist mentioned she grew up in Sandy. I said, that's interesting, I know somebody who grew up on a big farm in Sandy and now lives in Madras.

She got quiet as I tried to remember your last name. As I said it, she was nodding, "Mm-hm. I knew it."

She is (or was, she's married now) Carrie Snyder, Cody Carmony's neighbor. She dated your son (Gary) for a while in high school, met your folks (and declined the Rocky Mountain Oysters) and had even been out to your place in Madras.

Small world, isn't it? Very Happy

ounce Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:55 am

Mark B wrote:Here's a little distraction from your marathon post-mortem.

I was getting my teeth cleaned today when the hygienist mentioned she grew up in Sandy. I said, that's interesting, I know somebody who grew up on a big farm in Sandy and now lives in Madras.

She got quiet as I tried to remember your last name. As I said it, she was nodding, "Mm-hm. I knew it."

She is (or was, she's married now) Carrie Snyder, Cody Carmony's neighbor. She dated your son (Gary) for a while in high school, met your folks (and declined the Rocky Mountain Oysters) and had even been out to your place in Madras.

Small world, isn't it?

Boy, and with that plaque picker in your mouth, you better be glad that Gary didn't piss her off enough to clear plaque where plaque doesn't usually occur. Shocked

Mark B Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:43 am

ounce wrote:
Mark B wrote:Here's a little distraction from your marathon post-mortem.

I was getting my teeth cleaned today when the hygienist mentioned she grew up in Sandy. I said, that's interesting, I know somebody who grew up on a big farm in Sandy and now lives in Madras.

She got quiet as I tried to remember your last name. As I said it, she was nodding, "Mm-hm. I knew it."

She is (or was, she's married now) Carrie Snyder, Cody Carmony's neighbor. She dated your son (Gary) for a while in high school, met your folks (and declined the Rocky Mountain Oysters) and had even been out to your place in Madras.

Small world, isn't it?
Boy, and with that plaque picker in your mouth, you better be glad that Gary didn't piss her off enough to clear plaque where plaque doesn't usually occur.

You can be sure that possibility came up in the conversation. Very Happy

nkrichards Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Mark B wrote:
ounce wrote:
Mark B wrote:Here's a little distraction from your marathon post-mortem.

I was getting my teeth cleaned today when the hygienist mentioned she grew up in Sandy. I said, that's interesting, I know somebody who grew up on a big farm in Sandy and now lives in Madras.

She got quiet as I tried to remember your last name. As I said it, she was nodding, "Mm-hm. I knew it."

She is (or was, she's married now) Carrie Snyder, Cody Carmony's neighbor. She dated your son (Gary) for a while in high school, met your folks (and declined the Rocky Mountain Oysters) and had even been out to your place in Madras.

Small world, isn't it?
Boy, and with that plaque picker in your mouth, you better be glad that Gary didn't piss her off enough to clear plaque where plaque doesn't usually occur.

You can be sure that possibility came up in the conversation.

If you knew Gary's reputation you may have had second thoughts about admitting that you knew us! We moved to Madras when Gary was 12 but he often went back to spend time with his cousins and friends especially when he was a state FFA officer after graduating from high school. I'll have to ask Gary. I recognize Carrie's name but don't remember her well. Mom remembers her. It is a small world isn't it. Exclamation

nkrichards Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Still snowing...it's piling up and they are talking about records.

We did our core this morning. Went into it with the idea of doing as many reps as felt comfortable but not over doing it. We did the full 45 minute workout without any ill effects.

I remember why I hate the treadmill and I also remember why they request that you tether yourself to the emergency shutoff...I may have daydreamed a bit and fallen off the back of the treadmill today. No permanent harm but I have a dozzy of a "floor burn" on my left shin. It's all a surface injury but boy does it hurt!! More embarrassed than anything.

Ultreya...

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