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When is it time to change your training style?

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When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:40 pm

I have been doing the same training routine for marathons for a few years now. My times consistently have approved as I continue to creep up the mileage and making minor tweaks here and there. But overall the phases and the types of runs are the same.

My times from year to year 4:18 3:53 3:36 3:27 Hopefully this year 3:19. Seems many on here don't do track work like 400 800 1200 etc when training for marathon. I usually do this in the middle to end of my training as I transition from LT runs to track work.

Am I better served in losing the track workout or maybe doing less of them and keeping 1-2 ext LT runs? Any thoughts are very much appreciated.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  mul21 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:56 pm

I think you have the opposite problem that most people encounter. I really think you could push the pace a bit more on both your long and LT runs to challenge yourself a bit more Between doing that and maybe cutting out some of your "fun run" marathons, I think you'd likely see a quicker improvement in your marathon PR.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Schuey on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:56 pm

For me Kenny I have one simple rule that I follow and that is "If isn't broke don't fix it"!

So like you I have been pretty much doing the something since 09, accept for adding miles. Now I will add that I have made some changes this training cycle due to running the JFK 50 miler in Nov..

Normally I feel that why make major changes to your plan if what you are doing is still showing improvements. Once the improvements stop for me then I will think more about overhauling my plan. Although I do think it is important to make little tweaks to keep training cycles fresh and exciting.

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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:00 pm

mul21 wrote:I think you have the opposite problem that most people encounter. I really think you could push the pace a bit more on both your long and LT runs to challenge yourself a bit more Between doing that and maybe cutting out some of your "fun run" marathons, I think you'd likely see a quicker improvement in your marathon PR.

Jim, I agree 100% with Multi-Marathon quests. This cycle is dedicated to 2 marathons only hartford and philly which I think I can pull off a double PR as I tend to do better in the second ones. But in 2012 I'll race NJ marathon May and run Napa in March as a fun run so I think that should be ok. Doing 3 in 21 days or 7 in 9 months is not a good recipe.

Schuey wrote:For me Kenny I have one simple rule that I follow and that is "If isn't broke don't fix it"!

So like you I have been pretty much doing the something since 09, accept for adding miles. Now I will add that I have made some changes this training cycle due to running the JFK 50 miler in Nov..

Normally I feel that why make major changes to your plan if what you are doing is still showing improvements. Once the improvements stop for me then I will think more about overhauling my plan. Although I do think it is important to make little tweaks to keep training cycles fresh and exciting.


I agree if it broke don't fix I just feel like I am doing so well right now am I wondering if the LT's trump Vo2max for marathon training later in the schedule.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Schuey on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:04 pm

mul21 wrote:I think you have the opposite problem that most people encounter. I really think you could push the pace a bit more on both your long and LT runs to challenge yourself a bit more Between doing that and maybe cutting out some of your "fun run" marathons, I think you'd likely see a quicker improvement in your marathon PR.

I would agree with you Jim. I don't look at that as really changing the training plan, if for this example Kenny is already doing LT and long runs that would be more a little tweak. And you are correct as the aerobic base becomes more fit one should start to run the LT and long runs at a faster pace. Although I do believe that doing the long runs at a slower pace is not that bad of a idea due to I do believe that we can do some slow running and still become faster at the marathon distance.

I can see cutting back the fun run marathons if Kenny's focus is on improving his marathon time. But if Kenny is trying to focus on running a 50 miler then I can see doing more of those fun run marathons.

The one tweak that I think would be good for you also Kenny is to add more GA runs. At least for me I think that these runs have been the key to my success over the last year. I fall into the camp were I agree with Lydiard that we can do 1 run a day that is at are max aerobic fitness level. By doing that we are able to benefit from the aerobic fitness gains faster then by doing the runs at a less intensity. So for example I try to run at least 1 of my daily runs at 78-80% of max HR compared to 70-75%. Again Lydiard believed by doing 1 run at that 78-80% level you would see aerobic gains much faster then at the lower level.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:05 pm

If your goal is to get faster, then you have to practice running faster. So what Jim suggests is a viable addition to your training. I like the idea of speedwork as I love it, but during a marathon build up, I do longer track intervals (from 1500s to 3000s) at MP-30s pace during the last 10-12 weeks rather than 400s and 800s.

I've never been a high mileage runner to the degree that most of you are as the highest week I ever ran was 88 miles; however, I've always mixed those miles up with some speed depending upon my race goals.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Schuey on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:08 pm

Kenny B. wrote:
Schuey wrote:For me Kenny I have one simple rule that I follow and that is "If isn't broke don't fix it"!

So like you I have been pretty much doing the something since 09, accept for adding miles. Now I will add that I have made some changes this training cycle due to running the JFK 50 miler in Nov..

Normally I feel that why make major changes to your plan if what you are doing is still showing improvements. Once the improvements stop for me then I will think more about overhauling my plan. Although I do think it is important to make little tweaks to keep training cycles fresh and exciting.


I agree if it broke don't fix I just feel like I am doing so well right now am I wondering if the LT's trump Vo2max for marathon training later in the schedule.

Oh by far Kenny if you asked me about my philosophy for marathon training it would always be LT over Vo2max. That is me and that is my belief that the LT workouts are more important for the marathon then Vo2max.

But others believe different and other things work different for others. A great example is Tim Miller. I believe Tim does a lot more Vo2max type of stuff and less miles then I do. And that is great because Tim has found something that works for him to be able to improve not only his marathon times but other race times also.

So again it goes back to finding out what works best for you. The only way you will know is by making the change for a cycle or two and see how it works out.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Jerry on Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:49 pm

I look at the runners faster than me and I am targeting at. When they change style, me too. lol!
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Kenny B. on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:29 pm

Goid responses I agree GA runs are great and I do do them quite a bit in my cycle. Ill see if there is room to add. I also lije micheles longer int/repeats as I do enjiy the mixing in of track work.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Admin on Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:56 pm

The thing is this, the main improvements you can make to VO2Max do not take long to realize and after that additional VO2Max-specific workout are largely unnecessary. For VO2Max maintenance you really only need to throw in some strides and an occasional VO2Max-specific workout. So, while it take some hard work to improve VO2Max, once you get there you don't need to do a whole lot to keep the benefits. It pains me to see so many marathon runners burning up the track with speedwork when they've largely already hit their VO2Max and could simply maintain it with a 3rd of the effort.



Also, since LT correlates to a percentage of VO2Max, a higher VO2Max earlier in training gives you more room to improve LT over the training cycle. This is the main reason coach Gabriele Rosa has speedwork immediately follow base building instead of during the traditional 'sharpening phase' right before the marathon. Base building, then speedwork, then stamina.



Our 'traditional' western approach to marathon training comes from track where the idea is to 'get faster' and peak for your race. However, with marathon racing we aren't trying to peak our speed right before the race. We want to be able to race for 26.2 miles at the highest percent of VO2Max we can tolerate... just below LT. Build the base to condition the muscles and connective structures. Then, work on speed for a few weeks to peak VO2Max. Then, work on stamina (LT runs - MP runs) to prepare for sustaining race pace.



Or, just RUN MORE!

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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Nick Morris on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:14 pm

Schuey wrote:For me Kenny I have one simple rule that I follow and that is "If isn't broke don't fix it"!

So like you I have been pretty much doing the something since 09, accept for adding miles. Now I will add that I have made some changes this training cycle due to running the JFK 50 miler in Nov..

Normally I feel that why make major changes to your plan if what you are doing is still showing improvements. Once the improvements stop for me then I will think more about overhauling my plan. Although I do think it is important to make little tweaks to keep training cycles fresh and exciting.


I agree with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy, but at the same time, I think that you need to continue to make tweaks and try new things. I think that you are currently seeing some good progression with your marathon times. One thing to remember is that you are not going to become a sub 3:00 marathoner overnight. It takes a lot of base building to get to that point.

Something you could try is to increase your intensity instead of increasing your mileage. You are already at a decent weekly mileage, so increasing your intensity could help increase your fitness and speed levels.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  charles on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:14 am

Kenny, I am going to probably take a different tact than others . . . although I am probably more in line with Matt M. I don't know your training history as well as others. But it seems to me through the years you have VERY detailed marathon programs which you follow to a T and then you follow up with a shorter distance, speed intensive program - like a five mile race program.

Obviously you are aware of the importance of training cycles. Have you ever considered starting again? I know you do your segment of base building - we all do/or should. But I think most people train TOO FAST. I would suggest (after your next marathon or series of marathons/races) you consider taking a week or two off and starting again at square one with a long, long, long period of base building with lots, and lots of slow easy running.

The reason I say this is . . . and I meant to comment on your post about sub-elite . . . is that except for a few, a very few (Dave-O and Greg C come to mind) no one here is FAST. Sorry folks. At no point in a marathon will I, you, are ANYONE (save a few) be running "fast". So it's better to spend our time improving our base every chance we get. If you run a 2:30 marathon at 5:43 pace you still finish 25 to 15 minutes behind the winner. And you and I are finishing over ONE HOUR behind the winner. We are not fast - nor will we ever be FAST. But we can run faster! AND WE CAN TRAIN SO AS NOT TO FADE AT THE END OF THE MARATHON!

I wish I knew how to post a link to an "article" I have on my computer from LR.com called Hadd's Approach to Distance Training. I will cut and paste some of the passages - but I think we could all benefit from reading it multiple times.

Consider this thought:

Why was my 8.00m/m run so difficult?
Well, all my training in the 3 months leading up to it had been relatively hard. I had not trained slow enough for my slow twitch fibres to become stimulated to build huge amounts of mitochondria. My fast twitch red were becoming okay (I was reasonably good for 3-6m fast), but I could not access those fast powerful fibres at 8.00m/m. The intensity was too low. I was being forced to use my slow-twitch fibres... and they were not trained for any kind of endurance, and certainly not 2hrs.

It seems paradoxical, that I can be okay at 7.00m/m, but not at 8.15m/m, but here is one example. I was okay if I ran hard enough to force my body to recruit my fast twitch red fibres (and as long as they had enough glycogen). Like most distance runners I have relatively few fast twitch white fibres, so they were little help, and in all my 3 months of training my slow twitch were being by-passed on every training run. (Or rather, recruited, but swamped/overworked). The intensity of each training run was too high for them to be stimulated optimally to best create mitochondria in themselves (and thus improve). So when I ran at a pace that I was forced to access ONLY them, I was sunk.

So, to sum up:
To improve your LT (which will have a direct impact on your race performances), you must increase the mitochondria in your running muscles (in a neat move, the optimal training to improve mitochondria is also the optimal training to improve capillary density).

The more mitochondria, the less lactate at every running pace. But mitochondrial adaptation in each fibre type is training-intensity dependent. If you want to maximise the number of mitochondria in each fibre type, you must train at the correct pace for that type. (remember; the more mitochondria, the less lactate; the less lactate, the faster the racing pace and the more economical you are at any pace, meaning you can keep that pace up for longer.)


So what I'm getting at is that I don't want to see you fall into the speed trap where you are by-passing your slow-twitch muscle fibers on the majority of your training runs thinking you are getting faster and faster. Take the time - when the time is right for you - to start anew and really build more and more mitochondria - your engines of energy.

Think of it like a tube of toothpaste. To ensure you get every last drop (of ability) you have to go to the very end of the tube and slowly squeeze your way up. Never hurrying.

Just another training approach. And like all others - we are an experiment of one.

It seems that the summers in Memphis are IDEAL for slow, easy running - ideal for building those mitochondria - because you can't run fast for long in our heat and humidity. This approach has worked for me with surprising results - your mileage may vary. But it is a way to stay healthy. When you are healthy you RUN MORE. When you RUN MORE - you improve!

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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Kenny B. on Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:43 pm

Charles great stuff.

After reading what you wrote I looked back at my years and the only time I had a true rest period was in 2009 when I got injured I was out on and off for 10 weeks a total of 2 weeks with zero running. I then did an 18 week post injury schedule I designed myself which consisted of only recovery, lsd for many weeks building in GA runs, and eventually on 5 total runs of LT and/or Vo2max. I went from 5 miles to peaking at 50 miles at ran very close to a 5 mile race at PR.

I then went into 18 week marathon for Philly and PR with 3:36 vs. 3:53 a year earlier. 4 months later I ran a 3:30 at then a 3:27 about 9 months later.

Keep in mind the 3:27 was during one of my multi marathon quest 4 in about 13 weeks. 2 at race pace. So that being said you might be right but it might very well me that multi-marathon quests may be hindering (I am sure it is) me.

Now in early part of 2011 I ran 3 marathons for fun (slow) in 21 days then 10 weeks of lower mileage but running multiple short distance races PR in the 5k and 5 mile.

So this cycle of 14 weeks also is part of a multi quest hartford followed by philly to go 3:19. Now if I go 3:19 from 3:27 one may argue that I am doing something right or maybe I am not as could be closer to 3:10 or 3:15. However, my 5k and 10 mile time clal for around 3:18-3:19 marathon.

Where does this leave me? I can't change this cycle other then tweaking to hit my goal. Next cycle I won't have that many weeks to build a long base of easier running but I might be able to do it for 6-8 weeks. I think I can handle 8 weeks of easier running.

Thanks again gave me something really to look at and the proof is kind of their with the post injury schedule working so well.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Dave-O on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:26 pm

This is the overarching theme of Hudson's Run More.

My takeaway: One of the most valuable things a self-coached runner can do is review his or her training after a goal race to evaluate the stengths and weaknesses of the training cycle. Then, adjust accordingly.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Peg Coover on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:08 pm

I'm slow, but have run 5 marathons. With all of this "experience", I would have to say i still have yet to figure out how to run one without blowing up at the end! My PR at Twin Cities, I still felt crappy the last 5 mile. My last marathon, where I felt the most ready, I blew up from 15-22 and some how found another gear for the last few, but came in with my 3rd worst time.....

I'm leaning toward the run more philosophy, which with following Int II this year I am doing. I will hit 50 miles this week, which will be my biggest ever, and I will do it 2 more time! And my step backs which follow will still be 35-ish! I am racking up the miles on my shoes!!
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Admin on Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:21 pm

Peg Coover wrote:

I'm leaning toward the run more philosophy, which with following Int II this year I am doing. I will hit 50 miles this week, which will be my biggest ever, and I will do it 2 more time! And my step backs which follow will still be 35-ish! I am racking up the miles on my shoes!!








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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  Schuey on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:22 am

Dave-O wrote:This is the overarching theme of Hudson's Run More.

My takeaway: One of the most valuable things a self-coached runner can do is review his or her training after a goal race to evaluate the stengths and weaknesses of the training cycle. Then, adjust accordingly.

I buy that way of thinking and remember reading that in the Hudson book. I guess my question then is depending on what those strengths and weaknesses are and what distance you are focusing how much do you change or tweak the next training cycle?

Example for me, and we have had this conversation this past summer Dave, I think I could benefit from doing more speed work. Although I could add that speed work is it a benefit for me to do so when my focus is the marathon and 50 mile distance? Sure I feel that it would help me but is it worth the risk to add it and breakdown my body more or do I continue to leave the training program pretty much the same and try to still see the gains I have at the marathon distance?

Peg Coover wrote:I'm slow, but have run 5 marathons. With all of this "experience", I would have to say i still have yet to figure out how to run one without blowing up at the end! My PR at Twin Cities, I still felt crappy the last 5 mile. My last marathon, where I felt the most ready, I blew up from 15-22 and some how found another gear for the last few, but came in with my 3rd worst time.....

I'm leaning toward the run more philosophy, which with following Int II this year I am doing. I will hit 50 miles this week, which will be my biggest ever, and I will do it 2 more time! And my step backs which follow will still be 35-ish! I am racking up the miles on my shoes!!

Hey Peg I think the hardest thing to learn or get better at is how to handle the last 10k of the marathon. I have to admit that everyone marathon I have run the final 10k has been tough. I think the only things I think that make those final miles better is one running more in training and being able to focus on other things other then the pain. Other then that as you run faster you will still "experience" that tough feeling. Why? To it is because you are pushing your body to it's limits.

I like your philosophy of "running more"! For me the "run more" philosophy has a huge impact on my running and helping to make me a more efficient runner. Congrats on the new high mileage weeks! Go Peg!
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  jon c on Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:04 am

Schuey wrote:
Dave-O wrote:This is the overarching theme of Hudson's Run More.

My takeaway: One of the most valuable things a self-coached runner can do is review his or her training after a goal race to evaluate the stengths and weaknesses of the training cycle. Then, adjust accordingly.

I buy that way of thinking and remember reading that in the Hudson book. I guess my question then is depending on what those strengths and weaknesses are and what distance you are focusing how much do you change or tweak the next training cycle?

Example for me, and we have had this conversation this past summer Dave, I think I could benefit from doing more speed work. Although I could add that speed work is it a benefit for me to do so when my focus is the marathon and 50 mile distance? Sure I feel that it would help me but is it worth the risk to add it and breakdown my body more or do I continue to leave the training program pretty much the same and try to still see the gains I have at the marathon distance?

Peg Coover wrote:I'm slow, but have run 5 marathons. With all of this "experience", I would have to say i still have yet to figure out how to run one without blowing up at the end! My PR at Twin Cities, I still felt crappy the last 5 mile. My last marathon, where I felt the most ready, I blew up from 15-22 and some how found another gear for the last few, but came in with my 3rd worst time.....

I'm leaning toward the run more philosophy, which with following Int II this year I am doing. I will hit 50 miles this week, which will be my biggest ever, and I will do it 2 more time! And my step backs which follow will still be 35-ish! I am racking up the miles on my shoes!!

Hey Peg I think the hardest thing to learn or get better at is how to handle the last 10k of the marathon. I have to admit that everyone marathon I have run the final 10k has been tough. I think the only things I think that make those final miles better is one running more in training and being able to focus on other things other then the pain. Other then that as you run faster you will still "experience" that tough feeling. Why? To it is because you are pushing your body to it's limits.

I like your philosophy of "running more"! For me the "run more" philosophy has a huge impact on my running and helping to make me a more efficient runner. Congrats on the new high mileage weeks! Go Peg!



I agree with the above. You can't argue with experience. One of the things I have learned is if you are prepared and have spent a lot of time in training "running on tired legs", that will largely simulate how you feel the last 10K. The more you do it, the more acclimated you will become to it. In addition, if you stick to a pace that you have trained for and stay close to it, you are less likely to drift toward the end. I have been able to run two or three fulls where I was within one minute of both halves of the race. Mile splits were within 15 seconds the whole way. That being said, this was a learned process and did not happen until the last couple years. The more you run a full, the more you will get a feel for what it takes.
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Re: When is it time to change your training style?

Post  sir digby on Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:39 am

For me it's every cycle, I have fun trying different things in training.


My first cycle was Hudson based, my second I used a "coach", my third (4th marathon) cycle was RUN MORE, mostly easy miles averaging 70+ a week for 14 weeks. This cycle I'm following a Hanson program with roughly the same mileage as my previous cycle but with more quality.
I'm not sure if my style is helping or hurting but I'm enjoying the ride and that's what's important to me.


Marathon 1 Hudson - 3:39


Marathon 2 Coach - 4:00 (bad weather, bad race day execution) Marathon 3 four weeks later 3:26


Marathon 4 RUN MORE - 3:26 Horrible weather in Rockford, very windy w/ a lot of miles into a 25+ mph headwind


Marathon 5 Hanson - TBD Milwaukee Lakefront
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