Uphill climb part 2

Looks like your training is going really well! I'm a little jealous of the lack of snow and ice but I guess it's payback time in the summer.

It seems so long ago now since I have done such big training weeks. Good job John!

Thanks Julie and Dave. If my leg will hold together through all of this, I should come out on the other side a stronger runner. It is giving me a few problems now but I'll try to be smart about it...

Heading to Disneyworld this weekend to spend a week with family. Never done it before and don't really know what to expect, but it will be fun watching my son and his cousin. Won't be able to post while I'm gone, so here is where my week has taken me so far:

Monday: 12 miles @ 7:30 pace
Tuesday: 6 mile recovery run (8:26)
Wed: 10 miles w 5x1/2 hill repeats at 5% incline

mile/incline/pace
1/1%/8:00
2/1%/7:42
3/1%/7:30
4/5%/6:23, 4.5/0%/8:00
5/5%/6:27, 5.5/0%/8:30
6/5%/6:31, 6.5/0%/9:00
7/5%/6:40, 7.5/0%/9:13
8/5%/6:44, 8.5/0%/9:13
9/1%/7:42
10/1%/7:42

Thursday: 4 recovery (8:25), 6 recovery (8:29)

Friday: 12 miles w/8@MP (6:55 pace overall)
mile pace
1 7:42
2 7:22
3 6:51
4 6:48
5 6:50
6 6:52
7 6:48
8 6:47
9 6:48
10 6:34
11 6:54
12 6:45

Those are some serious workouts Dave's giving you, John. Just remember to run slow enough in recovery runs/sections to let them do their job, and you'll make it through the cycle.

Have fun at Disney World! It'll be fun hearing your impressions as a first-timer.

Have fun in Disney! The good news is that you should be able to get a run or two (or 4 or 5) in as long as they are early in the morning (but like 7:30 not 5 am) as the Parks don't open until 9 and you will find it rather quiet until then. enjoy!

Wow on the below. I don't think I've ever run 5% incline repeats at that speed. You must be a great hill runner:

4/5%/6:23, 4.5/0%/8:00
5/5%/6:27, 5.5/0%/8:30
6/5%/6:31, 6.5/0%/9:00
7/5%/6:40, 7.5/0%/9:13
8/5%/6:44, 8.5/0%/9:13

LOL what happened to 7:10-7:15 MP?! I freakin' love it, John.

Wow, you're fast! I hope you're having a good weekend with your family.

Have a great time at Disney - one of our favorite destinations!

I think John went out for a run and never came home. The next Caballo Blanco.

Mark B wrote:Those are some serious workouts Dave's giving you, John. Just remember to run slow enough in recovery runs/sections to let them do their job, and you'll make it through the cycle.

Have fun at Disney World! It'll be fun hearing your impressions as a first-timer.

Thanks Mark - Disney = nuts! It was a ton of fun to see everything through the eyes of a 6-year old. We did Disney x2, Sea World x2 and a day at Universal. Exhausting but a great time. I'm taking recovery seriously and it has been great (up until the hip flexor went kaboom).

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Have fun in Disney! The good news is that you should be able to get a run or two (or 4 or 5) in as long as they are early in the morning (but like 7:30 not 5 am) as the Parks don't open until 9 and you will find it rather quiet until then. enjoy!

Thanks Michele - it was great, but I haven't been able to run since my last posting - did what I could on an elliptical at a nearby YMCA while on vacation. Then walked all day at Disney chasing my son. Whewwww...

Chris M wrote:Wow on the below. I don't think I've ever run 5% incline repeats at that speed. You must be a great hill runner:

That is funny - I have no idea b/c I am a true flatlander. I almost never get the chance to run on hills unless it is on a treadmill. And that is a whopper of a workout...

Mike MacLellan wrote:LOL what happened to 7:10-7:15 MP?! I freakin' love it, John.

I'm working on that, but I may be going backwards if I don't get healthy soon...

Julie wrote:Wow, you're fast! I hope you're having a good weekend with your family.

Thanks Julie, it was a lot of fun.

Dave P wrote:Have a great time at Disney - one of our favorite destinations!

Thanks Dave - it was a heck of a trip and I'm sure a lot of memories were created for my son.

Mike MacLellan wrote:I think John went out for a run and never came home. The next Caballo Blanco.

Ha - hardly. I actually didn't have internet or a computer while on vacation and haven't had a time to check in yet (got back yesterday). I'm still here!


I was supposed to do a 20 mile run last Sunday. Actual miles = 0.

This week schedule/what I actually did:
Monday: 7 recovery / 7 on the elliptical (recovery effort) with simulated hill sprints
Tuesday: 11 miles with 5 tempo / 11 on the elliptical with 5 tempo effort on the elliptical
Wed: 14 mile long run / 14 miles on the elliptical at moderately hard effort
Thursday: 4 and 6 easy runs / 0 miles. Tried to run in the morning and didn't make it a third mile. Stopped and decided to try an extra day of rest/healing for the leg
Friday: 12 long with last 4 moderately hard / 12 moderate with last 4 at hard effort on the elliptical
Saturday: cycling / 45 miles cycling at ~19 mph

Scheduled for this week: 72 miles
Actual miles ran this week: 0 so far.

Ouch. What happened? Sometime (last) Wed. I strained what I think is a hip flexor. It was a little sore, but I was able to run through it on my recovery runs on Thursday with the leg loosening up after a mile or so. I had to limp around noticeably during the day, but still wanted to nail my Friday run (which I did), but it hurt BAD as soon as I stopped my run - had to limp home after the run (~1/3 mile). I drove that night to Orlando, but almost couldn't get out of the car when I got there the leg hurt so bad. I made it through sea world, but skipped my Saturday and Sunday workouts. As I've written, I used the elliptical during the week when I could relatively pain free, but the leg is getting better VERY slowly. I miss running so bad I hardly can't stand it - making me crazy actually. The elliptical sucks, but at least it keeps me doing something. When I run it feels like something is ripped apart inside the joint or inside the front of my leg, but at least I can walk around pretty much pain free and I was able to cycle almost pain free today.

I remember reading in Pfitzinger's Advanced Marathon that if you miss less than 10 days of training and are more than 8 weeks out, then you can resume training. I am coming dangerously close to missing the 8 week cutoff and will be coming dangerously close to missing more than 10 days. Does cross training count as training, or is the week a writeoff? I don't know. All I know is that I really felt myself getting stronger in my running and was REALLY getting pumped up about what was happening - gaining a lot of confidence and feeling great with the plan. I know it is challenging me and making me a better runner - I want to get back to it. Now I don't know where this will lead me. I'll just keep on doing what I can and hoping the leg can carry me forward soon.

I wish I had better news to report, but I do wish everyone a very Merry Christmas!

Hey, I can actually be helpful with this one.

First, the elliptical counts. While the muscles used aren't in the same EXACT proportion as they are running, it's closer than cycling, and you're still getting the cardiovascular workout you need. And you're still 8+ weeks out.

With that said, you need to fix this flexor ASAP. I'm going to pass on what Michele told me - this is the first piece of running advice I ever got - when my hip flexor was doing exactly what you're describing: SLOW DOWN.

We both came from a multi-sport background, which means we ran maybe 4 times a week, mostly between 4-8 miles, and then we jumped into full on marathon training. Running completely pounds your body in a way that cycling doesn't. When you jump from 3 or 4 to 6 or 7 days/week running, you really need to give your body time to adjust to the abuse.

Which means running slow. Let your legs - the mechanics - catch up to your fitness level. It will feel silly, slow, and pointless. But like Mark and Chris have mentioned, those recovery times need to be more recovery-y. There is no shame in running 9:30-10:00min/miles.

Also, I'd suggest heading down to your local gym and looking for the really awkward-looking thigh weight machines. They look like this:
http://merc-images.s3.amazonaws.com/1279/Maxicam-Inner-Thigh-Weight-Machine-Professional-Gym-Equipment/Maxicam-Inner-Thigh-Weight-Machine-Professional-Gym-Equipment_0_0.jpg and
http://merc-images.s3.amazonaws.com/1284/maxicam-outer-thigh-weight-machine-weight-bench/maxicam-outer-thigh-weight-machine-weight-bench_0_0.jpg
Start light, especially on the inner thigh one. And start getting serious with lower ab/core work. 2-3x/week.

Hang in there. You haven't lost any fitness by doing your workouts on an elliptical. You still have plenty of time to meet your goals, but you need to have a healthy leg first.

I'd agree with what Mike said. It is the most difficult aspect of marathon training. To run your best marathon time, you need to be running 6-7 days a week. But to run that often, you likely will need to slow way down or you will burn out with injury fast. Use the McMillan calculator. Those easy and long runs for you should be 8+ paced things. Save the 6:XX miles for the 2 or so days a week that you do workouts.

The more of these posts I read the more the thought hits me that people just don't know when to take it easy. A training plan is no good if you have to kill yourself or ruin yourself in the process of following it.
John, you're all concerned about losing fitness whereas you should be more concerned about recovering and becoming healthy, (deaf ears). You will not race at all if you are injured. What does it take to learn this? A major injury?
This applies to all of us.

Mike MacLellan wrote:Hang in there. You haven't lost any fitness by doing your workouts on an elliptical. You still have plenty of time to meet your goals, but you need to have a healthy leg first.

Thanks Mike - I'm being mindful of the leg and will incorporate the elliptical as needed. I've always wondered about those funky machines in the gym...

Chris M wrote:I'd agree with what Mike said. It is the most difficult aspect of marathon training. To run your best marathon time, you need to be running 6-7 days a week. But to run that often, you likely will need to slow way down or you will burn out with injury fast. Use the McMillan calculator. Those easy and long runs for you should be 8+ paced things. Save the 6:XX miles for the 2 or so days a week that you do workouts.

Thanks Chris - everything I've done to date basically has been done using the McMillan calculator, especially the recovery runs. I have only been running fast or hard a couple of days a week as it stands now. Actually, up until this, I have felt really good and haven't felt the burnout feeling at all - I give a lot of credit to doing just what you and others suggested, which is to focus on running the recovery runs at a recovery pace. Felt weird at first, but now they feel great.

Randy E wrote:The more of these posts I read the more the thought hits me that people just don't know when to take it easy. A training plan is no good if you have to kill yourself or ruin yourself in the process of following it.
John, you're all concerned about losing fitness whereas you should be more concerned about recovering and becoming healthy, (deaf ears). You will not race at all if you are injured. What does it take to learn this? A major injury?
This applies to all of us.

I don't get it. In my mind, I actually have been taking it easy. I haven't even hit a 70 mile week yet in training, only averaging about 56 miles a week. I never have felt as if I was killing myself. And, I have really only been doing very limited speed work, with really what I would call only seven true speed workouts now over the course of 5 weeks. How is that killing myself? Nor do I feel ruined. I am concerned about losing fitness b/c I have worked hard to get it, am excited about it, and enjoy running. I admit that I don't know everything there is to know about my limits yet, but isn't that sort of the point? Don't count me out quite yet....

As Randy pointed out, I can't race if I'm injured, so I'm listening to advice here and will likely not be dropping the hammer in any workouts for a little while. I can push runs on elliptical without much pain, so I wonder if I should do my speed workouts in a gym (elliptical) or keep the mileage but substitute all slow runs until it feels OK? Ideas?

Anyway, the good news is that because I HAVE been taking it easy by not running and aggravating it, it is slowly getting better. So much better that yesterday, for the first time in a week, I was able to do a 6 mile recovery run! It drives me nuts to not run, so mentally it was huge to be able to do that. It was only 6 miles and a slow 8:40 pace or so, but I was able to get it done. My leg did hurt some during the run, but I never ever pushed the pace and consciously would back down when it felt like I was straining or the leg was hurting more than "normal". I thought the true test would be to see what it felt like this morning and more good news - it still hurts some, but doesn't hurt any worse. A couple of recovery runs to do today and I will reassess.

I'd say nix the speedwork until it's healed. Trust me, the slow miles will build a huge base that you can peak from - think of it like Friel's cycling periodization. You start with a long base full of SLOW miles, you build with tempo/whatever, you peak with race-like workouts. You could easily do 2-3 weeks of only slow miles, then 2-3 of a really hit-'em-hard build/peak, and taper into a BQ.

What part of this don't you get:

"Ouch. What happened? Sometime (last) Wed. I strained what I think is a hip flexor. It was a little sore, but I was able to run through it on my recovery runs on Thursday with the leg loosening up after a mile or so. I had to limp around noticeably during the day, but still wanted to nail my Friday run (which I did), but it hurt BAD as soon as I stopped my run - had to limp home after the run (~1/3 mile). I drove that night to Orlando, but almost couldn't get out of the car when I got there the leg hurt so bad. I made it through sea world, but skipped my Saturday and Sunday workouts."

You ran even though you thought you had a strained hip flexor. Then, even on your most recent post in which you run 6 miles you still mention having pain. You'll get it eventually and probably the hard way. Good luck.

I didn't know I had a hip flexor injury. I had never had that pain before and I had no experience with what was going on. Only later did someone suggest maybe it was a hip flexor. I sometimes have little niggles that heal on their own - thought this was one of them. Had I known the severity, I would never of tried to push it and risk hurting it worse (which I guess I did). The pain has stabilized and I'm no longer limping. Yes, it is still there, but it is not getting any worse and didn't feel worse after yesterday's run. Thought it would be a good idea to mix in some slower runs and get back to things gradually.

Randy, you think I'm an idiot. I get it. Maybe one day I'll do something right... To change the subject, I did follow Kona this year, as I'm sure you did. Amazing.....

Here's to hoping that nobody else has to go through their own injuries in 2012. Seems a very difficult task to train to really get better without risking ever getting hurt. But there are those obviously smart and/or talented enough to do better than I have done.

We all get injured (well, most of us) and sometimes we don't realize it for another day or two. I always check my shoe mileage when my knee (my personal trouble spot) starts acting up and usually new shoes and a couple days off does the trick. Just be careful when you need to be.

Happy new year to you and your family and I am hoping we all have a very good 2012.

Randy E wrote:What part of this don't you get:

"Ouch. What happened? Sometime (last) Wed. I strained what I think is a hip flexor. It was a little sore, but I was able to run through it on my recovery runs on Thursday with the leg loosening up after a mile or so. I had to limp around noticeably during the day, but still wanted to nail my Friday run (which I did), but it hurt BAD as soon as I stopped my run - had to limp home after the run (~1/3 mile). I drove that night to Orlando, but almost couldn't get out of the car when I got there the leg hurt so bad. I made it through sea world, but skipped my Saturday and Sunday workouts."

You ran even though you thought you had a strained hip flexor. Then, even on your most recent post in which you run 6 miles you still mention having pain. You'll get it eventually and probably the hard way. Good luck.

Oh come on. That's not fair, and you're only pointing it out because hindsight is 20/20. You can't seriously claim you've never run through a minor ache or strain that loosens up during the run. If that was the case, we'd be skipping half of our runs. Part of building a stronger system is running through fatigue, and its only in hindsight that you can accurately tell when an ache was more than an ache.

To John's defense: I've been communicating with him daily since his training started. Yes, a few recovery runs were too fast, but I'm careful to monitor reports of residual or cumulative soreness. He was handling the training with ease. The volume was no problem for him and he was properly balancing hard and easy runs. I'm not comfortable with all this armchair quarterbacking.

Hindsight is 20/20. But, with more proactive thinking or "foresight," you won't need to use hindsight. I have run with minor aches and I do know how a run, many times, seems to cure the niggle. But, I also am able to figure out when it's not worth the chance of greater injury to attempt a run and rest instead.
In John's case, his long run left his body in a lot of pain and he could hardly get out of the car. To me, that is not minor and it should have been clear that maybe something serious may have happened. Then he attempts a run and still has pain. To me, that is not being proactive and considering the consequences.
I read other posts from other runners on this sight and they also don't know when to let things heal. I don't get it.
So Dave, using hindsight, what do you think now?

Randy E wrote:
In John's case, his long run left his body in a lot of pain and he could hardly get out of the car. To me, that is not minor and it should have been clear that maybe something serious may have happened. Then he attempts a run and still has pain. To me, that is not being proactive and considering the consequences.

He reported a minor ache on Thursday, which loosened up during the run. It was not a hindrance on his Friday run. After Friday's run, he first noticed considerable pain. He didn't run on Saturday or Sunday.

If you have the foresight, based on that scenario, to detect an injury, you should play the lottery more often.

Randy E wrote:
So Dave, using hindsight, what do you think now?

I think John pulled a muscle that in no way was caused by naively training through or hiding pain. It happens. He wisely stopped running the day he first detected bad pain and has promptly seen a doctor to begin rehab.

Randy E wrote:In John's case, his long run left his body in a lot of pain and he could hardly get out of the car. To me, that is not minor and it should have been clear that maybe something serious may have happened. Then he attempts a run and still has pain. To me, that is not being proactive and considering the consequences.

Actually, the running part on Friday felt great. It was only after I
stopped that it really "seized up" (or felt really really sore all of a
sudden). The first time I ran after that was 10 days later. I was
careful and easy on an elliptical after it happened to make sure what I
could do with no pain, then proceeded with cross training. On the 10th day I attempted a slow recovery run, for which it still hurt a little bit. The next morning it felt a little better so I ran another recovery run. There was still a little pain, so I did a 2nd workout on the elliptical. Just got back from 12 miles on the elliptical today. As Dave said, saw a Dr. and am following his advice, which is cross train until pain subsides, but there is likely a muscle strain that will take hopefully not too long to heal and I am cleared to run when ready, taking it slowly on the speed work. To avoid this in the future and hopefully come back stronger sooner, I am also seeing a PT.

What I am confused about is whether this is advice to try and help a friend on the 365 running board or an opportunity to point out the failings/ineptness of someone. I hope it is the former, but what do I know?

John, of course I'm trying to help. I wish people would learn to listen to their bodies better and heed what it is saying. I think we all need to learn to be better at recovery as well. Nothing bothers me more than someone who keeps tearing themselves down and then wonders, "what happened?"
I guess I've seen this so many times throughout the years with many runners and it just makes me shake my head. We are all here to help and learn from each other. Part of that learning is to accept constructive criticism once in a while. We also must use hindsight to learn from the past so we don't repeat certain things in the future.
Hope this makes sense.
Nothing would make me happier than to see you get better and better and remain injury free in the process. You have a lot of talent and I hope Dave brings that out of you.

John, so sorry to read that you are experiencing leg pain. There is nothing more frustrating than having to go through that, especially trying to figure out what the injury is and how to rehab it. The great thing about this place is the friendship--we can always count on each other for support, advice, and even a shoulder to cry on! Hang in there!