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Closer to the Edge

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Chris M on Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:22 pm

@Schuey wrote:
@Dave-O wrote:
You make a good point, one that I mostly agree with. The mere thought of a solo ten mile tempo does seem to require greater mental focus. And if my goal is more practice - physical and mental - at a marathon-like effort, I should do at least some of these outside.

To continue the conversation: Would I lose the mental benefit if I tempo'd with a group and let them set the pace?


Now on to your new question about losing the mental benefit from running with a group that sets the pace. I think it could go either way. Example when I did the tempo with you and Chris couple of Springs ago it was just what I needed. That run help build confidence in my ability to hold a certain pace. Also if you remember I had the option to go off by myself which I ended up doing the last mile.

.

Why can't I keep things short? So for the long post again Dave hope you find some benefit from what I was trying to say.

Poor Dave. He's a good dude for staying with me at 6:20 or so for the last mile while you hit the turbo to drop us and go sub 6:00. You gotta believe at least 49% of him wanted to chase you down and crush you!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:29 pm

@Chris M wrote:
@Schuey wrote:
@Dave-O wrote:
You make a good point, one that I mostly agree with. The mere thought of a solo ten mile tempo does seem to require greater mental focus. And if my goal is more practice - physical and mental - at a marathon-like effort, I should do at least some of these outside.

To continue the conversation: Would I lose the mental benefit if I tempo'd with a group and let them set the pace?


Now on to your new question about losing the mental benefit from running with a group that sets the pace. I think it could go either way. Example when I did the tempo with you and Chris couple of Springs ago it was just what I needed. That run help build confidence in my ability to hold a certain pace. Also if you remember I had the option to go off by myself which I ended up doing the last mile.

.

Why can't I keep things short? So for the long post again Dave hope you find some benefit from what I was trying to say.

Poor Dave. He's a good dude for staying with me at 6:20 or so for the last mile while you hit the turbo to drop us and go sub 6:00. You gotta believe at least 49% of him wanted to chase you down and crush you!

I'm betting it was closer to 99.99%. That shows you what a good buddy he truly was(is). Laughing


Cool, the Halo's just brought up 19 year old Trout to replace Bourgos while he's injured. cheers Wells is playing well, however--so this is probably temporary unless he crushes it.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  GregC on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:56 pm

@Dave-O wrote:You make a good point, one that I mostly agree with. The mere thought of a solo ten mile tempo does seem to require greater mental focus. And if my goal is more practice - physical and mental - at a marathon-like effort, I should do at least some of these outside.

To continue the conversation: Would I lose the mental benefit if I tempo'd with a group and let them set the pace?

Just to be clear, we're really nitpicking here. If the engine is big enough, you can handle anything that gets thrown at you, and whether you do this on the treadmill or outside, the engine is getting stronger. The way I see this happening for you, is your early week shorter tempo is going to be hammered. You can't get that many fast guys together and not get competitive. You might as well take advantage of that and really work hard on these. That will get your desire to run fast out of your system and then you'll be able to work on cruising for these 10 mile tempos. If you're feeling spunky on these, I'd say go longer instead of faster. Add a mile onto the end if you really feel like you're not working hard enough. While I do think it's important to do some of these outside, I don't think they all have to be outside. Treadmill works for those hot days...although for me the thought of a 10 mile treadmill tempo is nauseating.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  JohnP on Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:59 pm

How do you adjust the treadmill by just a few seconds pace? All the treadmills I've used set pace in tenths of miles which means typically 6-10 seconds difference per mile. I don't know how to change it just a few seconds.

Also, I do tempos on the TM in the winter time, and I switch outside in the summer. But I do them at the track so I can concentrate on the pace as out on the road, there are too many cars, curbs, etc. I think they are more difficult outside because the TM doesn't let you slow down whereas I have to fight the brain which wants to slow down outside. But I think they are equally beneficial, you're taxing the system either way.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:38 pm

@Jerry wrote:Hey Dave, you have a team, but never do group runs? They are all too fast for you? Basketball

I ask as I thought I read somewhere that one of the problems with American elites is they don't train together any more.

Its hard to train together too often when we all have real jobs. Some work in the loop, others suburbs, etc. There is a group tempo run on Mondays and track workouts on Thursdays. I will start going to the tempos again in next Monday, but the track workouts don't exactly fit into my idea of marathon training.

And yes, I am considered slow for the team.


@Chris M wrote:
@Schuey wrote:

Now on to your new question about losing the mental benefit from running with a group that sets the pace. I think it could go either way. Example when I did the tempo with you and Chris couple of Springs ago it was just what I needed. That run help build confidence in my ability to hold a certain pace. Also if you remember I had the option to go off by myself which I ended up doing the last mile.


Poor Dave. He's a good dude for staying with me at 6:20 or so for the last mile while you hit the turbo to drop us and go sub 6:00. You gotta believe at least 49% of him wanted to chase you down and crush you!

Way more than 49%. Especially after this comment. I'll remember this Mr. Schumacher...

jimd wrote:
I'm betting it was closer to 99.99%. That shows you what a good buddy he truly was(is). Laughing

Cool, the Halo's just brought up 19 year old Trout to replace Bourgos while he's injured. cheers Wells is playing well, however--so this is probably temporary unless he crushes it.

99% is more like it...

Watched the game Saturday night, where Trout scored from 1b on a double. Kid can absolutely fly, especially given his size. He looks special. I also love that Trumbo continues to kill the ball.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:40 pm

@GregC wrote:
Just to be clear, we're really nitpicking here. If the engine is big enough, you can handle anything that gets thrown at you, and whether you do this on the treadmill or outside, the engine is getting stronger. The way I see this happening for you, is your early week shorter tempo is going to be hammered. You can't get that many fast guys together and not get competitive. You might as well take advantage of that and really work hard on these. That will get your desire to run fast out of your system and then you'll be able to work on cruising for these 10 mile tempos. If you're feeling spunky on these, I'd say go longer instead of faster. Add a mile onto the end if you really feel like you're not working hard enough. While I do think it's important to do some of these outside, I don't think they all have to be outside. Treadmill works for those hot days...although for me the thought of a 10 mile treadmill tempo is nauseating.

This is true. The Monday tempos can get a little out of hand. That is definitely the one run of the week where I truly push it.


@JohnP wrote:How do you adjust the treadmill by just a few seconds pace? All the treadmills I've used set pace in tenths of miles which means typically 6-10 seconds difference per mile. I don't know how to change it just a few seconds.


My treadmill is the same, but I don't leave it on the same speed for a full mile. I'm always playing with the speed, both up and down, so the actual mile split doesn't have to vary by 6 or more seconds.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:43 pm

Chicago Training, Week 4: July 4 - July 1

Monday: 6 miles, untimed. I celebrated Independence Day by skipping today’s second run. Because I can. Actually, I was pretty disappointed about only getting out once, but the weekend simply caught up to me. After an easy 6 miles in the late morning, I spent the day on the beach in Michigan City. I had every intention to put in 8 more easy miles, but by the time I got home at 8:00 pm, I knew it wasn’t happening. My punishment is spending the rest of this week climbing out of this mileage hole.

Tuesday: 6 miles – 44:21, 7:23 pace. 14 miles – 1:24:53, with 10 miles – 57:21, 5:44 pace. The only good thing about skipping yesterday’s second run was that with only 16 miles on my legs in the last 48 hours, I was as fresh as can be for today’s 10 mile tempo. It was one of those days that I knew from the first step it was going to be a strong run. The first 6 miles absolutely flew by, not feeling one bit like a “tempo” run: 5:53, 5:50, 5:49, 5:44, 5:42, and 5:41. At this point I was ready to hammer the last four; instead, I showed some restraint and reminded myself that the point of these runs is efficiency near goal pace. With that in mind, I finished the run at 5:46, 5:42, 5:36, and 5:32. Though the fastest of my three tempos, this was by far the easiest.

Wednesday: 5 miles – 36:56, 7:23 pace. 9 miles – 1:02:59, 7:00 pace. I didn’t realize it until I was heading out for my second run, but we had a bye this week in softball. I was a lot less pressed for time and able to relax on my 9 mile route home. A 14 mile day that leaves me feeling better than when I woke up = a successful recovery day.

Thursday: 6 miles – 44:29, 7:25 pace. 14 miles – 1:33:33, 6:41 pace. One good way to make up for Monday’s 6 mile day is with three 20 mile days between Tuesday and Saturday, this being the second. As expected, I was a little heavy-legged to start the run, but once I got moving I found a comfortable stride. And anytime these mid-week long runs pass by without any sort of real struggle, that’s a good thing. Summer continues to heat up in Chicago, so eventually these runs are going to be a battle against the heat, but so far so good.

Friday: 8 miles – 56:52, 7:07 pace. 4 miles – 29:45, 7:26 pace. I switched up the order of my easy runs today to provide extra recovery before my 20 miler tomorrow. I also enjoy my 8 mile lunchtime route, which takes me around the planetarium and Northerly Island. The 4 treadmill miles after work weren’t nearly as scenic.

Saturday: 20 miles – 2:16:29, 6:49. It would actually be more accurate for today’s entry to read, “16 miles, 45 minute drive, 4 miles.” Let me explain. I met Greg in the south suburbs for a 20 mile run. All was well until about mile 10 where I started really noticing the effects of the heat and humidity. My shoes were already leaving puddles of sweat behind. We made it to our cooler of water and Gatorade at mile 13, but the damage was already done. I was cooked. My ears were ringing and I felt nauseous. I told Greg I had to take the direct 3 mile route back to our cars, to which he graciously obliged. I felt terrible bailing on him at 16 miles – he manned up and finished the 20 – but I didn’t think I’d make it.

Of course, about 20 minutes into my drive home, in the air conditioned car and after drinking about a gallon of water, I felt fine. My legs were never taxed during the run, so I immediately felt guilty about stopping 4 miles short. My solution: Stop at the gym and put in 4 more miles. While I openly admit this doesn’t count as a true 20 miler, I was at least able to enjoy the rest of my weekend without a guilty conscious. Yes, I know I’m a basket case.

Sunday: 10 miles – 1:14:56, 7:30 pace. 4 miles, untimed. Its official: The heat owns me. I don’t know what the heat index was at, but with the mercury north of 90 and the humidity suffocating, it had to be over 100. I felt every bit of it on my 10 mile jog at Waterfall Glen. Despite treasuring every second of shade like gold, I thought at times I was running through a furnace. I’ve ever enjoyed myself less at Waterfall Glen…except for maybe the three hour round trip caused by Gaper’s Block of a tipped over semi-truck. In summary, it was not a good use of my Sunday afternoon.

Week: 106
YTD: 2,165
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  mul21 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 pm

@Dave-O wrote:Its official: The heat owns me.

Join the freaking club! At least your weekend was a whole lot more productive than mine!

I got a talking to at the Y today for staying on the mill too long, but I really didn't care because it meant I wasn't half dead and dehydrated on a trail somewhere.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Julie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:49 pm

The heat has been brutal. I am in awe of your 5-something/mile for 10 miles. You are one fast runner!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  ChasMcG on Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:03 pm

Well I see not much has changed Dave. You're still an amazing runner! Rockin' it always!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Penelope on Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:52 pm

Sounds like a hard week because of the extreme heat, but you got out there and did it. I think you definitely earn points for mental toughness and dedication. Your training is as impressive as always, and motivating to others, so keep up the good work.
BTW, I want to get a segway. That could be my primary means of making the 1.5 mile commute each direction to work. Smile Just kidding.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:23 pm

Hey Dave-O's lucky that it's only segways and not Vespas like Chris probably had to dodge. Can you imagine the lakefront carnage? affraid affraid




Of course, then again, most of us would need a Vespa to keep up with Greg and Dave. Wink
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  John Kilpatrick on Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:30 pm

Another century week - good job, but you are a basket case... Sunday run sounded tough, Tuesday run sounded great. I know your faster than most, but it's all relative - the days when you feel on are awesome!

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:01 pm

Man, I hope you went to the Forest Preserve/Waterfall Glen today. I read that the low was 77 or something like that. Yuck!!!

I know going to a pro baseball game rocks just about any time, but is it getting harder this year with the way the Cubs have performed?Arrow
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  JohnP on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:28 pm

Why are you going to Waterfall Glen so much with a flat race? I know hills are excellent training, it just seems you could do some hill repeats on a TM with incline and save some hours of travel.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:00 am

@Julie wrote:The heat has been brutal. I am in awe of your 5-something/mile for 10 miles. You are one fast runner!

Eh, its all relative. But thank you.

@ChasMcG wrote:Well I see not much has changed Dave. You're still an amazing runner! Rockin' it always!

I try. I just need my race times to start rockin again.

@Penelope wrote:BTW, I want to get a segway. That could be my primary means of making the 1.5 mile commute each direction to work. Smile Just kidding.

No joke, I saw someone in a full suit and briefcase on a segway in the loop last week. So you wouldn't be the only one!

jimd wrote:
Of course, then again, most of us would need a Vespa to keep up with Greg and Dave. Wink

Britt and I actually own a cheap scooter. We used it a lot when we first bought it; not so much lately.

@John Kilpatrick wrote:Another century week - good job, but you are a basket case... Sunday run sounded tough, Tuesday run sounded great. I know your faster than most, but it's all relative - the days when you feel on are awesome!

I know I'm a basket case. Aren't we all to some extent? Very Happy

jimd wrote:Man, I hope you went to the Forest Preserve/Waterfall Glen today. I read that the low was 77 or something like that. Yuck!!!

I know going to a pro baseball game rocks just about any time, but is it getting harder this year with the way the Cubs have performed?Arrow

As you'll see, I stuck to the treadmill this weekend for my long run. Yuck is right!

I've gone to much fewer Cubs games than usual - I think only 5 this year. There's just nothing to get excited about this time, and now it appears Hendry isn't going to hold a fire sale. Lame.

@JohnP wrote:Why are you going to Waterfall Glen so much with a flat race? I know hills are excellent training, it just seems you could do some hill repeats on a TM with incline and save some hours of travel.

Couple reasons. One, I do think some hill work is beneficial even for a flat race. I think it works my hips and glutes in ways that flat terrain doesn't. Second, sometimes I just need to get out of the city and onto a calm 10 mile trail. Very Happy
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Dave-O on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:29 pm

Chicago Training, Week 5: July 11 - July 17

Monday: 8 miles – 59:02, 7:23 pace. Another Monday, another missed run. This time the culprit was my opposing counsel at a hearing for temporary restraining order. The hearing was set for 11:00, but before starting oral argument, one defendant decided to exercise his right to take a change of judges. By the time we were reassigned to Judge No. 2, it was already noon. Then, the second defendant took its substitution of judges. Fantastic. We didn’t make our way before Judge No. 3 until 1:15, at which point he said it was too late to have the hearing today and rescheduled it for Wednesday. So we spent over two hours to accomplish nothing.

Tuesday: 6 miles, untimed. 14 miles – 1:24:31, with 10 miles – 56:31, 5:39 pace. After my first 10-mile tempo back in week 2, I joked that I was expecting a nice linear progression for the first 4 weeks of this workout. Even then I didn’t expect the progress in average pace to be quite so noticeable: 5:58, 5:51, 5:44 and now 5:39. And I’m not lying when I say they’ve gotten easier and more comfortable each week. Tonight – donning my new Lunar Spiders for the first time – I wasted no time in getting right into pace: 5:49, 5:45, 5:41, 5:38 and 5:38. At the halfway mark, I knew a sub-5:40 pace was in play, though I tried to balance that goal with not running too hard. Miles 6 through 8 were 5:35, 5:42, and 5:38. Still feeling surprisingly strong, I closed in 5:35 and 5:25. I don’t want to get overexcited just yet, but I’m really starting to believe the weekly 10-mile tempo was the missing ingredient to my marathon fitness.

Wednesday: 5 miles, untimed. 9 miles – 1:03:55, 7:06 pace. This week has turned into a carbon copy of last week. Now I just need to find a way to cram 4 more miles into the week to hit 110.

Thursday: 6 miles – 44:43, 7:27 pace. 14 miles – 1:27:10, 6:14 pace. I didn’t expect this 14 miler to be so quick. In fact, I felt quite fatigued for the first three miles. I don’t know if it was out of boredom or merely to take advantage of the cooler than normal July weather, but I ran a 6:18 for mile 5 and realized that it really felt no different than the previous 6:40. I decided to roll with it, averaging 6:08 for miles 6 through 10. At that point, I figured I might as well continue the progression and turn this into a fast finish long run. I averaged 5:44 for miles 11 through 14. Don’t you love when you have an unexpectedly really strong workout? Once home, I crunched some numbers and realized that in the last 3 days I’ve run 54 miles with 20 of them at an average pace of 5:48. Easy killer.

Friday: 5 miles, untimed. 7 miles – 51:05, 7:18 pace. This was my third untimed run into work this week, and I can guarantee you this was the slowest. Clearly the faster-than-normal 14 miler last night took its toll on my legs. If I had to guess, the pace was probably around 8:00. I didn’t feel much better on the run home either.

Saturday: 6 miles – 44:16, 7:23 pace. 10 miles – 1:08:09, 6:49 pace. Because I didn’t feel like I “recovered” at all yesterday, I decided on a second double easy day today. The first run was a 6 mile loop around Humboldt Park. Following a nap and a generally lazy day, I put in another 10 miles before meeting friends out for dinner and drinks. I definitely felt better than yesterday, but the heat that has overtaken Chicago is wearing me down.

Sunday: 20 miles – 2:09:17, 6:28 pace. While the back-to-back recovery days definitely worked its magic, the decision to push back the long run to Sunday was greeted with 95 degree temps. That’s not good. I tried waiting it out, hoping it would at least drop into the 80’s, but by 5:00 I gave in and headed for the treadmill. Its days like this I am reminded why no elite runners call Chicago home. Though I have logged my share of long runs on the ‘mill, it’s still necessary to play mental games to break up the monotony.

Tonight’s game was to run every 4th mile at goal marathon pace. I can’t say for certain there’s a specific physiological benefit to random MP miles, but I can promise you it helps the run go by faster – both in actuality by the clock and in my head. I found myself looking forward to the 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20th miles, and perhaps more importantly, the fast miles made the 6:30 paced miles seem much easier. In all, I was able to sneak in under 6:30 average pace for the whole run, something I know for certain would never happen in 90 degree conditions.

Before training started, I broke my cycle down into three 5-week blocks followed by a 2 week taper. The first block is in the books. In total I averaged 105 for the 5 weeks (526 miles) with a focus on the 10-mile tempos and long runs. Now it’s time to introduce a second quality workout into the mix.

Week: 110
YTD: 2,275
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Stephanie on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:56 pm

Dave, do you do untimed runs for a particular reason/benefit?

And sorry to hear about missing a Monday's run because of work. That would make me craaaaaazy!!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Schuey on Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:06 pm

Great looking week of training and there is no doubt that you are getting stronger on those 10 mile tempo runs. As for the weather on Thursday and Friday of last week man that was so nice, sure wish we had that weather again this week!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Matt W on Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:36 pm



Another great week Dave. Your long tempo and fast ML run were especially impressive. You had a lot of quality in your 110 miles and that bodes well for the future.

It seems like you've gotten your groove back and are really ready to make up for the frustrating spring you endured. Keep up the strong running.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Diego on Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:06 am

Well...? Are you still alive?

Enquiring minds want to know, what beers did you end up drinking? scratch
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Chris M on Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:47 am

Nice work last night. That guy wanted to end it right off the bat. He couldn't sustain that pace but going with him for too long would have been suicide and he probably had that as his strategy. Smart running to let him go and fight for 2nd/3rd.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  mul21 on Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:00 am

Heckuva race in the heat! Unfortunate that there wasn't anything more delicious than Bud Light on the menu!
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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  John Kilpatrick on Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:46 pm

Dave,



Are your untimed runs always recovery-type runs?If so, why do you time some of the recovery runs and not others? Just curious and trying to learn as I go....

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Re: Closer to the Edge

Post  Michele "1L" Keane on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:48 pm

Congrats on the speedy 5K, Dave-O. I had no power yesterday, but I thought about you and wondered how the "unofficial" race went.
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Re: Closer to the Edge

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