Closer to the Edge

Ok, people actually are so lazy that they use segways on the Lakefront path?

Joel H wrote:

By the way, what are some of the options for next Spring?

I don't even know if I'll target a full or a half yet, so pretty much everything is in play. I doubt I'll run Boston though. Too many other races and place I want to run before going to Beantown for a 4th time.

Natalie Wolf wrote:One of these days, I'd like to ride a segway.

I have nothing against segways per se; I just think they should not commingle with runners.

[quote="GregC"]

Dave-O wrote:

Come on Dave. Look how happy they all look!

If you paid $50 to ride a segway at 5 mph, you'd force a smile too.

Bob wrote:My orange windbreaker is barely fitting anymore. I better get back to running soon.

Ha. We could fit 2 of you in that windbreaker.

jimd wrote:You gotta love a great pitching matchup that winds up 1-0 in favor of my team and your best fantasy pitcher. If the Blue Jays or any other team with an offense had these pitchers, they would be crushing the competition. The Angels have, by far, the most underrated pitching lineup in baseball. On ESPN, all I hear about are the Giants, Phils and AL EAST pitchers.

I bet the Angels are pleased with the decision not to resign the corpse of John Lackey, huh? By the way, Trumbo for rookie of the year? I have him and he's going to be a valuable trade piece to a rebuilding team. My Angels quad of Haren, Kendrick, Trumbo and Walden has been great.

Michele "1L" Keane wrote:Ok, people actually are so lazy that they use segways on the Lakefront path?

Its for tourists as a guided tour of the lakefront area. Takes them to Navy Pier, Grant Park and the Museums. In fairness, it is a good way for out-of-towners to see about a 3 mile stretch of the lakefront. I just wish they had a separate path.

Since we often discuss music in the blogs, and because I made my 10 mile tempos a focus of this blog, I figured I'd share the playlists I've made for the three tempos thus far. I decided that instead of listening to the same record, I'd make a new playlist for each.

Tempo #1:

Kayne West - Dark Fantasy
Muse - Resistence
Death Cab for Cutie - You are a Tourist
My Chemical Romance - Sing
Alkaline Trio - Hell Yes
B.O.B. - Do't Let me Fall
30 Seconds to Mars - Search and Destroy
Panic! At the Disco - Time to Dance
Coheed & Cambria - A Flavor House Atlantic
At the Drive-In - Arc Arsenal
The Gaslight Anthem - The '59 Sound
Fall Out Boy - Patron Saint of Liars and Fakes
Arcade Fire - Rebellion (Lies)
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #2

Angels & Airwaves - Call to Arms
Eminem - Drug Ballad
Jack's Mannequin - Crashin
Jimmy Eat World - Bleed American
Red Jumsuit Aparatus - Face Down
Story of the Year - Anthem of our Dying Day
Taking Back Sunday - ...Slowdance on the Inside
Straylight Run - The Tension and the Terror
30 Seconds to Mars - Kings and Queens
Thursday - Jet Black New Year
My Chemical Romance - Welcome to the Black Parade
Yellowcard - Holly Wood Died
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #3 (all songs track #1 on their record)

NoFX - The Decline (18:30 long)
MGMT - Time to Pretend
The All-American Rejects - My Paper Heart
Alkaline Trio - Private Eye
The Gaslight Anthem - Great Expectations
Get Up Kids - Holiday
Paramore - For a Pessimist I'm Pretty Optimistic
My Chemical Romance - Helena
Finch - New Beginnings
The Used - Maybe Memories
Thursday - Understanding in a Car Crash
30 Seconds to Mars - Attack

Just wanted to quickly say that I think your tempo runs are looking really good. I hope you continue to run those easily hard. I'm sure as the summer goes on there will be a few where you dip below 5:40 pace for these, but I'm hoping you don't go much lower than that. The small benefit that you'd get from hammering those won't be worth the beating your legs will take. Keep your eye on the big picture.

Alright Dave it is safe to say that either I'm starting to show the fact that I will be 40 in 2 weeks or I have just been lost in my own little music world. Because I have only heard of one of those artist on your list and that is Eminem and that is because Lisa told me who he is.

Were is your dad when I need him?

GregC wrote:Just wanted to quickly say that I think your tempo runs are looking really good. I hope you continue to run those easily hard. I'm sure as the summer goes on there will be a few where you dip below 5:40 pace for these, but I'm hoping you don't go much lower than that. The small benefit that you'd get from hammering those won't be worth the beating your legs will take. Keep your eye on the big picture.

I would also agree with what Greg said above.

Dave-O wrote:Since we often discuss music in the blogs, and because I made my 10 mile tempos a focus of this blog, I figured I'd share the playlists I've made for the three tempos thus far. I decided that instead of listening to the same record, I'd make a new playlist for each.

Tempo #1:

Kayne West - Dark Fantasy
Muse - Resistence
Death Cab for Cutie - You are a Tourist
My Chemical Romance - Sing
Alkaline Trio - Hell Yes
B.O.B. - Do't Let me Fall
30 Seconds to Mars - Search and Destroy
Panic! At the Disco - Time to Dance
Coheed & Cambria - A Flavor House Atlantic
At the Drive-In - Arc Arsenal
The Gaslight Anthem - The '59 Sound
Fall Out Boy - Patron Saint of Liars and Fakes
Arcade Fire - Rebellion (Lies)
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #2

Angels & Airwaves - Call to Arms
Eminem - Drug Ballad
Jack's Mannequin - Crashin
Jimmy Eat World - Bleed American
Red Jumsuit Aparatus - Face Down
Story of the Year - Anthem of our Dying Day
Taking Back Sunday - ...Slowdance on the Inside
Straylight Run - The Tension and the Terror
30 Seconds to Mars - Kings and Queens
Thursday - Jet Black New Year
My Chemical Romance - Welcome to the Black Parade
Yellowcard - Holly Wood Died
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #3 (all songs track #1 on their record)

NoFX - The Decline (18:30 long)
MGMT - Time to Pretend
The All-American Rejects - My Paper Heart
Alkaline Trio - Private Eye
The Gaslight Anthem - Great Expectations
Get Up Kids - Holiday
Paramore - For a Pessimist I'm Pretty Optimistic
My Chemical Romance - Helena
Finch - New Beginnings
The Used - Maybe Memories
Thursday - Understanding in a Car Crash
30 Seconds to Mars - Attack

Dave - I LOVE every one of your song selections and I am stealing your playlists! I noticed Coheed & Cambria...do you like Welcome Home? I have that on my playlist. Another My Chemical song that is good is, 'I'm Not Ok', Yellowcard's, 'Ocean Avenue', Angels & Airwaves', 'The Adventure' and 'The Gift' and B.O.B. - 'Airplanes', featuring Hayley Willams. Oh - 1 more....'I Made It' - Kevin Rudolf, featuring Jay Sean, Lil Wayne & Birdman!

Dave-O wrote:Since we often discuss music in the blogs, and because I made my 10 mile tempos a focus of this blog, I figured I'd share the playlists I've made for the three tempos thus far. I decided that instead of listening to the same record, I'd make a new playlist for each.

Tempo #1:

Kayne West - Dark Fantasy
Muse - Resistence
Death Cab for Cutie - You are a Tourist
My Chemical Romance - Sing
Alkaline Trio - Hell Yes
B.O.B. - Do't Let me Fall
30 Seconds to Mars - Search and Destroy
Panic! At the Disco - Time to Dance
Coheed & Cambria - A Flavor House Atlantic
At the Drive-In - Arc Arsenal
The Gaslight Anthem - The '59 Sound
Fall Out Boy - Patron Saint of Liars and Fakes
Arcade Fire - Rebellion (Lies)
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #2

Angels & Airwaves - Call to Arms
Eminem - Drug Ballad
Jack's Mannequin - Crashin
Jimmy Eat World - Bleed American
Red Jumsuit Aparatus - Face Down
Story of the Year - Anthem of our Dying Day
Taking Back Sunday - ...Slowdance on the Inside
Straylight Run - The Tension and the Terror
30 Seconds to Mars - Kings and Queens
Thursday - Jet Black New Year
My Chemical Romance - Welcome to the Black Parade
Yellowcard - Holly Wood Died
30 Seconds to Mars - Closer to the Edge

Tempo #3 (all songs track #1 on their record)

NoFX - The Decline (18:30 long)
MGMT - Time to Pretend
The All-American Rejects - My Paper Heart
Alkaline Trio - Private Eye
The Gaslight Anthem - Great Expectations
Get Up Kids - Holiday
Paramore - For a Pessimist I'm Pretty Optimistic
My Chemical Romance - Helena
Finch - New Beginnings
The Used - Maybe Memories
Thursday - Understanding in a Car Crash
30 Seconds to Mars - Attack

Boy Dave, you're really a young dude!

Schuey wrote:Alright Dave it is safe to say that either I'm starting to show the fact that I will be 40 in 2 weeks or I have just been lost in my own little music world. Because I have only heard of one of those artist on your list and that is Eminem and that is because Lisa told me who he is.

Were is your dad when I need him?

Nah, a lot of these bands aren't exactly mainstream. Plus, we share interest in bands like Wilco and Radiohead. Those just aren't running songs though.

Mrs. Schuey wrote:
Dave - I LOVE every one of your song selections and I am stealing your playlists! I noticed Coheed & Cambria...do you like Welcome Home? I have that on my playlist. Another My Chemical song that is good is, 'I'm Not Ok', Yellowcard's, 'Ocean Avenue', Angels & Airwaves', 'The Adventure' and 'The Gift' and B.O.B. - 'Airplanes', featuring Hayley Willams. Oh - 1 more....'I Made It' - Kevin Rudolf, featuring Jay Sean, Lil Wayne & Birdman!

What, you've had enough Grateful Dead? Yes, I have all of those songs you listed as well (okay not Kevin Rudolph...). I'm still old school in that I buy - and NOT download - CDs, so for the bands I listed I have the full disc. I've always enjoyed buying a new record based on a recommendation without really knowing what to expect. I've come across some of my favorites bands that way!

fostever wrote:Boy Dave, you're really a young dude!

I just pretend to still be a young punk. But as long as bands like Rancid, Bad Religion, Pennywise, etc. are still touring, I can still pretend to be a jaded teenager. (where's a mohawk emoticon when I need it!)

GregC wrote:Just wanted to quickly say that I think your tempo runs are looking really good. I hope you continue to run those easily hard. I'm sure as the summer goes on there will be a few where you dip below 5:40 pace for these, but I'm hoping you don't go much lower than that. The small benefit that you'd get from hammering those won't be worth the beating your legs will take. Keep your eye on the big picture.

It will take some restraint, but that it my goal. On this week's tempo (Tuesday), I was fresh coming off really easy days on Sunday and Monday. I ended up averging 5:44, but was tempted to start unleashing 5:30's after about 4 miles. I resisted and instead finished feeling like I could have put in 6 more miles at that pace, which I think is the point of these runs.

Question back at ya: So far, my three 10-milers have been on the treadmill so I can control the settings as I get used to these. I plan on at least 1 more indoors. Do you think there's a big difference between outdoor and indoor? Am I losing some benefit on the treadmill? Starting a week from Monday, I'll be doing 4-6 mile tempos outdoors with Fleet Feet, and the idea of the 10 milers on the 'mill on Thursdays is attractive. Just curious as to your, and everyone else's, thoughts.

Dave-O wrote:

GregC wrote:Just wanted to quickly say that I think your tempo runs are looking really good. I hope you continue to run those easily hard. I'm sure as the summer goes on there will be a few where you dip below 5:40 pace for these, but I'm hoping you don't go much lower than that. The small benefit that you'd get from hammering those won't be worth the beating your legs will take. Keep your eye on the big picture.

It will take some restraint, but that it my goal. On this week's tempo (Tuesday), I was fresh coming off really easy days on Sunday and Monday. I ended up averging 5:44, but was tempted to start unleashing 5:30's after about 4 miles. I resisted and instead finished feeling like I could have put in 6 more miles at that pace, which I think is the point of these runs.

Question back at ya: So far, my three 10-milers have been on the treadmill so I can control the settings as I get used to these. I plan on at least 1 more indoors. Do you think there's a big difference between outdoor and indoor? Am I losing some benefit on the treadmill? Starting a week from Monday, I'll be doing 4-6 mile tempos outdoors with Fleet Feet, and the idea of the 10 milers on the 'mill on Thursdays is attractive. Just curious as to your, and everyone else's, thoughts.

I'm sure you will get a better answer from Greg on this Dave but here is what I think. I don't think there is a big difference but I do think there are difference that can help and not help. I have found when doing tempos on the mill they always seemed harder to me do to the fact that you have to keep up with the mill plus it just doesn't feel like I'm going anywhere. I think the biggest difference is going to be the control of the weather and not so much the wind but more the temp, humidity and dew point. I really think that will have an impact on how the runs feel when you do them outside.

I personal don't think you are losing any benefit from doing them on the mill. Let's face it running at or near LT wether it is on the mill or outside it's still running at that effort. Ok maybe the run feels a little easier on the mill at that pace compared to what 5:40 is going to feel like outside. So maybe you bump the tempo pace down to 5:35 on the mill to give it more of a feel of what 5:40 would feel like outside. Again as far as missing out I don't think your missing out and I think that I like your idea of running one of your tempos outside and another on the mill starting next week.

I did all my tempo runs for Boston on the mill and I found that I was in just as great shape as I was when I ran them outside. I truly found running that fast of a pace on the mill harder then outside. Then again the other thing I did do was I ran at a faster pace to make-up what I thought it would feel like outside. So after running some of your tempos outside at a 5:40 in what you think is the right conditions maybe you then change the pace on the mill to match what you feel is that same 5:40 effort outside, maybe it is still 5:40, maybe it ends up being 5:35. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing it and then again I guess I'm a little bias due to the fact that the mill has help me run some great race in Boston the last couple of years.

First, can you burn me a disc of those playlists? I'm mostly just too lazy to spend the time compiling and I could just drop them right into a playlist that way!

Second, I personally like the tempos on a mill just for the consistency factor. Eliminating all the extraneous BS (hills, temp, humidity, etc.) gives you a better idea of effort and gets your HR where it should be. Now, that may not be as much of a factor for you since these aren't true tempo runs, but with all the other mileage you do outside, I can't imagine it would have much of an effect on the physiological benefits you get from those specific runs.

I'm coming back later and putting up a dueling playlist although I'm with you on at least 90% of the tunes selected. A few I don't know. Finch? Straylight Run? Story of the Year? But no Rise Against anywhere on there? That's just wrong. More to come later. Damn, now I have "Hell Yes" stuck in my head.....I've done it before and I'll do it again....

I guess I'll be the dissenting opinion. I personally find part of the value in the tempo run to be finding that groove pace and going with it. When you run them on the treadmill, the pace is dictated to you so you lose that piece of it. So while I think the physiological benefits are probably about the same when it comes to treadmill vs. road, I do think you gain a mental advantage when doing it on the road as you have to focus more on pace. When the struggles and self-doubt start to creep up on you, its completely on you to maintain pace. Now, you don't seem to have much a problem digging deep when you need to so maybe for you the treadmill is fine, but I know for me, I'm constantly battling my mind during longer races so the more practice I can get winning that battle, the better off I am.

GregC wrote:I guess I'll be the dissenting opinion. I personally find part of the value in the tempo run to be finding that groove pace and going with it. When you run them on the treadmill, the pace is dictated to you so you lose that piece of it. So while I think the physiological benefits are probably about the same when it comes to treadmill vs. road, I do think you gain a mental advantage when doing it on the road as you have to focus more on pace. When the struggles and self-doubt start to creep up on you, its completely on you to maintain pace. Now, you don't seem to have much a problem digging deep when you need to so maybe for you the treadmill is fine, but I know for me, I'm constantly battling my mind during longer races so the more practice I can get winning that battle, the better off I am.

I'll agree with this. Hadn't thought about that part of it, and with cooler weather and the nice, flat lakefront path, the obstacles you have to deal with are less than I do when I run my tempos.

So how do you wind up with such random paces per mile on the treadmill (splits below)? Are you just constantly changing speed on the treadmill?

6:02
5:58
5:56
5:53
5:52
5:51
5:52
5:46
5:39
5:38

GregC wrote:So how do you wind up with such random paces per mile on the treadmill (splits below)? Are you just constantly changing speed on the treadmill?

6:02
5:58
5:56
5:53
5:52
5:51
5:52
5:46
5:39
5:38

Inquiring runners want to know!

While you guys are thinking about and posting regarding tempos done outdoors versus on mills, I'm still mulling over Dave's good song lists for the tempo runs. Here's mine, following his format but I'm so much slower that there are more songs:

Foster The People - Pumped Up Kicks
Radiohead - Jigsaw Falling Into Place
A Silent Film - You Will Leave A Mark
(ok, now you are warmed up - time to work)
Rancid - Ruby Soho
Muse - Uprising
Alkaline Trio - Mercy Me
Tegan & Sara - Hell
Jimmy Eat World - Pain
Taking Back Sunday - Cute Without the 'E'
Kaiser Chiefs - I Predict A Riot
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Y Control
Flogging Molly - Reqiuem For A Dying Song
Phoenix - 1901
Blink 182 - Dammit
Coheed & Cambria - The Suffering
AFI - Girls Not Grey
The Gaslight Anthem - I'd Called You Woody, Joe
Matchbox 20 - How Far We've Come
Rise Against - A Life Less Frightening

Wow, I have some listening to do.

And to think that I thought Harvey Danger's Flagpole Sitta and Take Me Out by Franz Ferdinand were great tempo running songs. I guess I'm too old skool.

What's the best song for running 1 mile repeats? Something that lasts 5:30-6:00?

Flagpole Sitta IS a brilliant song. I'm beside myself that someone else knows that one.

While we're on music, anyone use dubstep for intervals? I feel like some of the longer drops would be great for 800s, since they last 2:30-3:30.

I find MP or faster runs more difficult (and more beneficial) outside compared to the treadmill.

Schuey and Jim: Thanks for the feedback on the treadmill tempos. While their may not be clear answer, its good hearing from others that have done so with success.

GregC wrote:I guess I'll be the dissenting opinion. I personally find part of the value in the tempo run to be finding that groove pace and going with it. When you run them on the treadmill, the pace is dictated to you so you lose that piece of it. So while I think the physiological benefits are probably about the same when it comes to treadmill vs. road, I do think you gain a mental advantage when doing it on the road as you have to focus more on pace. When the struggles and self-doubt start to creep up on you, its completely on you to maintain pace. Now, you don't seem to have much a problem digging deep when you need to so maybe for you the treadmill is fine, but I know for me, I'm constantly battling my mind during longer races so the more practice I can get winning that battle, the better off I am.

You make a good point, one that I mostly agree with. The mere thought of a solo ten mile tempo does seem to require greater mental focus. And if my goal is more practice - physical and mental - at a marathon-like effort, I should do at least some of these outside.

To continue the conversation: Would I lose the mental benefit if I tempo'd with a group and let them set the pace?

GregC wrote:So how do you wind up with such random paces per mile on the treadmill (splits below)? Are you just constantly changing speed on the treadmill?

6:02
5:58
5:56
5:53
5:52
5:51
5:52
5:46
5:39
5:38

Yes. I play with the paces at random times. For the first 2-3 miles I increase the pace more often to get down to what I hope the average is. Once there, I sporadically adjust the race, sometimes by feel, sometimes when a new song starts, etc. Then I have been waiting until the last two to drop below 5:40.

Dave-O wrote:
You make a good point, one that I mostly agree with. The mere thought of a solo ten mile tempo does seem to require greater mental focus. And if my goal is more practice - physical and mental - at a marathon-like effort, I should do at least some of these outside.

To continue the conversation: Would I lose the mental benefit if I tempo'd with a group and let them set the pace?

Even though I was backing the fact that you could do these tempos on the mill I was also taken in a count that you would also be doing some tempos and marathon-like effort outside to gain the practice, physical and mental edge you would need for race day. The only time I would find it hard to do that is durning the winter months.

Now on to your new question about losing the mental benefit from running with a group that sets the pace. I think it could go either way. Example when I did the tempo with you and Chris couple of Springs ago it was just what I needed. That run help build confidence in my ability to hold a certain pace. Also if you remember I had the option to go off by myself which I ended up doing the last mile.

On the other side of things I like doing tempo runs on my own do to the fact that I have find the mental edge in myself to get the run done. Which as you know can and most likely happens at times during a race. Other then running Boston except maybe the last 1 1/2 miles you normally have someone to run with. Point being Dave I think that doing the group tempos can be a huge benefit for you. 1. It can help keep you under control and running a pace that you want, if one group is running to quick then drop back and run with another group or you have the option of creating your own pace group. 2. If the pace is under control with the group and you feel like you want to pick up the pace towards the end of the run you can.

What I think is good about the above it gives you the chances to practice race strategy. You are able to pick up the pace and go when someone makes a move, you can make the move yourself and sees who goes with you. You also can let a group go and then see if you can catch that pack again later.

Again I feel there are times that you can benefit from doing them by yourself to be able to push yourself on your own.

Why can't I keep things short? So for the long post again Dave hope you find some benefit from what I was trying to say.

Hey Dave, you have a team, but never do group runs? They are all too fast for you?

I ask as I thought I read somewhere that one of the problems with American elites is they don't train together any more.