Trails for Two

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:39 miles.

If the weather had not been so much hotter than it has been, that might've happened.

What actually happened was 31.6 miles, getting Alita her first marathon and 50 km distance running. That was more than enough for the day.  Once we hit that at about 9:41:00, we called it good.

That heat just kicked our butts.

Well that's an accomplishment to be proud of even if you didn't reach your "A" goals.  I thought I remembered you mentioning Alita's goal to get in 50K and that was accomplished yesterday.

It's tough when things that are out of control affect us on race day and weather is just one of the things we can't change and can't predict when we choose events.  It was getting warm on the mountain yesterday and it was quite warm once I got home and showered and cleaned up.  I was thinking about you and Alita out there running in circles...

Hope you rested well today.  I'm interested in your assessment of the event once you've recovered a bit.

Tell Alita congrats!

I will, thanks!

We were pretty busy today, so this is the first rest I've gotten. The general ache of impending rigomortis has eased, but my cranky calf/hamstring/whatever is still on edge. Now that I'm done with helping Alita hit her goal, I'll go get it checked out.

That heat was something else. It started off muggy and then got hot. It was about 80 in the shade and a lot hotter in sunny spots. I stopped sweating for a while, which my body did not like, and I had general cramping in my hamstrings and butt. Added to the leg issue, it was rough. I ended up with a large blister from the shoes and what looks like heat rash on my forehead and chest. Very odd, and very itchy!

Alita fared better than I did. Her knee started acting up right before hitting 31 miles -- significantly farther than ever before, but she decided to call it good after 50K because of how I was doing. My fragile male ego will have to learn to cope with that.

Elijah Bristow 12-hour run: (stopped after 10 hours after hitting 50K)

Weather: Warm, getting fairly hot. Muggy. 64-80, hotter in the sun.

The race in a nutshell. We started off at what I thought was a conservative pace -- I had to keep pulling Alita back -- and we maintained it until the temperature started climbing in the late morning. Then we started walking a little bit more, and taking more time at the aid station. The heat seemed to affect me more than it did Alita. At one point, I realized that I wasn't really sweating much anymore. I tried to work that problem, but it didn't get better until hours later, when after taking a long dinner break I noticed thick sweat oozing out of my forehead. Weird.

I didn't notice the lack of sweat as much because my left leg -- the one I'd tweaked back in May -- went from fine to a little uncomfortable to really uncomfortable in a fast progression. As I tried to compensate for that, the rest of my legs started to complain. It was mostly in the glute and hamstring area. Eventually, I was letting Alita take the lead, which was weird for her. She'd never seen me fall apart during a race, so that was doubly weird.

We took a long break and had hamburgers and beer (mine with lots of pickle relish) and slowly walked a lap to digest it, and the crampy sensation in my legs got better for most of the rest of the race, though my left leg was still hurting and I was developing a blister while walking in my new shoes.

But she kept on, and I kept on with her, hoping and praying I could hold out long enough for her to hit her 31-mile goal. As we got closer to it, she got excited and started pushing harder. Her knee - which has tended to go out on her in races - held up until the last lap before 50K. Then it started sparking on her. Once we got to 50K, we celebrated by wading into the Willamette River and then slowly walking back, running though the timing gate together before calling it good.

Yesterday, Alita said she would have liked to go the full 12 hours but stopped because she was worried about me. Feel a little guilty about that.

Lessons learned:

There wasn't much we could have done about the heat. Our training has been in the 50s or cooler, and it was in the upper 70s for most of the day in the shade. We weren't adapted.

I don't think we did enough long runs to be able to maintain a steady effort for 12 hours. We needed runs over 20 miles, and we never got there. We had it in us to do a decent 6-hour effort, but not twice as long.

Alita's pretty darn awesome. (Of course, I knew that already.)

Good for Alita...and good for you!

Sounds like a tough day...because of the weather...that was complicated by your leg and shoe issues.  Hope you figure out exactly what's going on with the leg and get it healed up so you can prepare for your next event.

You probably already know this but maybe being forced to allow Alita to take the lead and let go of that male ego thing for even a few hours was good for both of you!

I am really impressed that the two of you are doing this together.  You accomplished much more than logging miles on Saturday!

Congrats on surviving a tough day!!

Sorry that your body didn't get synchronized with Alita.  You did right on eating and the pickle relish, but I guess the damage was done.  You'll be fine.  You'll learn more about the calf to tell us about and Alita will get you training for something else that she wants to race.

Enjoy the river walks during lunch.

nkrichards wrote:Good for Alita...and good for you!

Sounds like a tough day...because of the weather...that was complicated by your leg and shoe issues.  Hope you figure out exactly what's going on with the leg and get it healed up so you can prepare for your next event.

You probably already know this but maybe being forced to allow Alita to take the lead and let go of that male ego thing for even a few hours was good for both of you!

I am really impressed that the two of you are doing this together.  You accomplished much more than logging miles on Saturday!

Congrats on surviving a tough day!!

Thanks! I have an appointment next week. It's probably just a strained muscle, but it's taking its own sweet time healing up.

And thanks on the other accomplishments. We had several people out there ask us if we were a couple, then be amazed when we said, "Uh, yeah..." It didn't seem like that big of a deal that we're running together, but maybe it is? Either way, I like it.

ounce wrote:Sorry that your body didn't get synchronized with Alita.  You did right on eating and the pickle relish, but I guess the damage was done.  You'll be fine.  You'll learn more about the calf to tell us about and Alita will get you training for something else that she wants to race.

Enjoy the river walks during lunch.

I was asking for pickle juice, then pickles, with no luck. When we had a burger,  I saw the pickle relish and heaped it on. It seemed to help.

The one thing that really surprised me was this heat rash I picked up. It's all over my forehead and upper chest. I read that heat rash qualifies as a heat illness, which would sure explain how rotten I was feeling there for a while. 

My next race is Mount Hood in about a month. I hope that my body is back on track and that my confidence is a little less shaken than it is right now.

I'm not sure what Alita wants to do next. She doesn't want to attempt the 12 hour again. Or, at least, she didn't Sunday... She wants to keep scheduling things, because it keeps her honest and gives her motivation to keep getting out there when she'd rather goof off.

Do what runners don't like doing...be patient.

ounce wrote:Do what runners don't like doing...be patient.

Riiggghhhht...

On the upside, Alita is surprised with how fast she's recovering. She was pretty sore the night of and morning after, but she's a lot better now.

I'm actually doing pretty well, too, except for that lingering issue that predated the run. My heat rash is fading (that was weird) and I'm only a little tired and grumpy this morning. It feels like I'm depleted and can't figure out the right food to replenish. Amazingly, Nacho Cheese Doritos did not do the trick!

Mark B wrote:

ounce wrote:Do what runners don't like doing...be patient.

Riiggghhhht...

On the upside, Alita is surprised with how fast she's recovering. She was pretty sore the night of and morning after, but she's a lot better now.

I'm actually doing pretty well, too, except for that lingering issue that predated the run. My heat rash is fading (that was weird) and I'm only a little tired and grumpy this morning. It feels like I'm depleted and can't figure out the right food to replenish. Amazingly, Nacho Cheese Doritos did not do the trick!

Well, it felt good to pass on advice that I don't follow.

I'd try really good pizza or abuse an intern...or both.

So here's a fun thing to realize...

As I was limping around the house this morning, I checked a calendar and to my horror realized that there are only THREE WEEKS between the race we did last weekend and the Mount Hood 50K on July 10. And I'm nearly halfway through the first of those three weeks. 

All I have time for is to heal up from this past event and try to maintain some level of fitness while tapering for the next one! 

It seemed like such a great idea at the time...

---

The limping isn't from the general post-race soreness, it's the pulled calf/hamstring/whatever in my left leg, which is still angry with me. My doctor's appointment is next Tuesday. If it turns out that I have an injury that could be made worse (like an knee ligament tear) by running an ultramarathon on it, we can cancel the hotel reservation and maybe just drive up that day to volunteer. Also, if it feels the way it feels today come race day, it'd be a likely sufferfest with a possible DNF that I'd rather avoid. Been there, done that. I'm not giving up, mind you, just keeping a clear head about the situation.

Mark B wrote:So here's a fun thing to realize...

As I was limping around the house this morning, I checked a calendar and to my horror realized that there are only THREE WEEKS between the race we did last weekend and the Mount Hood 50K on July 10. And I'm nearly halfway through the first of those three weeks. 

All I have time for is to heal up from this past event and try to maintain some level of fitness while tapering for the next one! 

It seemed like such a great idea at the time...

---

The limping isn't from the general post-race soreness, it's the pulled calf/hamstring/whatever in my left leg, which is still angry with me. My doctor's appointment is next Tuesday. If it turns out that I have an injury that could be made worse (like an knee ligament tear) by running an ultramarathon on it, we can cancel the hotel reservation and maybe just drive up that day to volunteer. Also, if it feels the way it feels today come race day, it'd be a likely sufferfest with a possible DNF that I'd rather avoid. Been there, done that. I'm not giving up, mind you, just keeping a clear head about the situation.

Tough spot to be in Mark.  Do what you can until you have a discussion with the doctor.  I know as difficult as it will be you'll make the right choice if you have to.

A light kind of clicked on when I read your post today.  I'm putting the finishing touches on my marathon training plan.  The basic training plan is easy to plot out...it's the other events I want to do during training that are causing the uncertainty.  Do I taper?  How much?  Do I jump right back into marathon training?  I think the biggest question is, can I participate in these events at a less competitive level to make sure they don't disrupt marathon training.  Your experience has me thinking worrying...

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:So here's a fun thing to realize...

As I was limping around the house this morning, I checked a calendar and to my horror realized that there are only THREE WEEKS between the race we did last weekend and the Mount Hood 50K on July 10. And I'm nearly halfway through the first of those three weeks. 

All I have time for is to heal up from this past event and try to maintain some level of fitness while tapering for the next one! 

It seemed like such a great idea at the time...

---

The limping isn't from the general post-race soreness, it's the pulled calf/hamstring/whatever in my left leg, which is still angry with me. My doctor's appointment is next Tuesday. If it turns out that I have an injury that could be made worse (like an knee ligament tear) by running an ultramarathon on it, we can cancel the hotel reservation and maybe just drive up that day to volunteer. Also, if it feels the way it feels today come race day, it'd be a likely sufferfest with a possible DNF that I'd rather avoid. Been there, done that. I'm not giving up, mind you, just keeping a clear head about the situation.

Tough spot to be in Mark.  Do what you can until you have a discussion with the doctor.  I know as difficult as it will be you'll make the right choice if you have to.

A light kind of clicked on when I read your post today.  I'm putting the finishing touches on my marathon training plan.  The basic training plan is easy to plot out...it's the other events I want to do during training that are causing the uncertainty.  Do I taper?  How much?  Do I jump right back into marathon training?  I think the biggest question is, can I participate in these events at a less competitive level to make sure they don't disrupt marathon training.  Your experience has me thinking worrying...

A little worrying thinking is better at this point than somewhere in the middle of the plan. What I've seen people do is do a 1-week minitaper before an event that's not the main goal of the training cycle. Maybe that'd work for you. The tricky part is to balancing how much you want to compete in each of those secondary events.

If you can get your hand on the book Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger, there's a section in the back that talks about training plans for multiple marathons. That might offers some guidance. Also, some of Hal Higdon's marathon plans include training races at points in the main cycle. Maybe you can see how he balances those out.

There are lots of options, and I'm pretty sure you can balance it out.

Update: I walked 1 mile during lunch yesterday, and 2 miles today. It was rough starting both days, but the calf/knee/whatever started to loosen up after about a third of a mile. When I got back to the office after 2 miles today, it *almost* felt normal.

Of course, I have to spend the rest of the afternoon sitting in my chair, which seems to aggravate it, so it'll probably tighten up the next time I stand up.

Mark B wrote:

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:So here's a fun thing to realize...

As I was limping around the house this morning, I checked a calendar and to my horror realized that there are only THREE WEEKS between the race we did last weekend and the Mount Hood 50K on July 10. And I'm nearly halfway through the first of those three weeks. 

All I have time for is to heal up from this past event and try to maintain some level of fitness while tapering for the next one! 

It seemed like such a great idea at the time...

---

The limping isn't from the general post-race soreness, it's the pulled calf/hamstring/whatever in my left leg, which is still angry with me. My doctor's appointment is next Tuesday. If it turns out that I have an injury that could be made worse (like an knee ligament tear) by running an ultramarathon on it, we can cancel the hotel reservation and maybe just drive up that day to volunteer. Also, if it feels the way it feels today come race day, it'd be a likely sufferfest with a possible DNF that I'd rather avoid. Been there, done that. I'm not giving up, mind you, just keeping a clear head about the situation.

Tough spot to be in Mark.  Do what you can until you have a discussion with the doctor.  I know as difficult as it will be you'll make the right choice if you have to.

A light kind of clicked on when I read your post today.  I'm putting the finishing touches on my marathon training plan.  The basic training plan is easy to plot out...it's the other events I want to do during training that are causing the uncertainty.  Do I taper?  How much?  Do I jump right back into marathon training?  I think the biggest question is, can I participate in these events at a less competitive level to make sure they don't disrupt marathon training.  Your experience has me thinking worrying...

A little worrying thinking is better at this point than somewhere in the middle of the plan. What I've seen people do is do a 1-week minitaper before an event that's not the main goal of the training cycle. Maybe that'd work for you. The tricky part is to balancing how much you want to compete in each of those secondary events.

If you can get your hand on the book Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger, there's a section in the back that talks about training plans for multiple marathons. That might offers some guidance. Also, some of Hal Higdon's marathon plans include training races at points in the main cycle. Maybe you can see how he balances those out.

There are lots of options, and I'm pretty sure you can balance it out.

Aside from common sense, Nancy, your RHR seems to be a really good indication of how things are going with you.

Mark B wrote:Update: I walked 1 mile during lunch yesterday, and 2 miles today. It was rough starting both days, but the calf/knee/whatever started to loosen up after about a third of a mile. When I got back to the office after 2 miles today, it *almost* felt normal.

Of course, I have to spend the rest of the afternoon sitting in my chair, which seems to aggravate it, so it'll probably tighten up the next time I stand up.

May I suggest the exercises for a sprained ankle, when sitting.  Flexion and extension, write the alphabet with your big toe, 10 circles to the left with both feet, then 10 circles to the right.

ounce wrote:

Mark B wrote:

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:So here's a fun thing to realize...

As I was limping around the house this morning, I checked a calendar and to my horror realized that there are only THREE WEEKS between the race we did last weekend and the Mount Hood 50K on July 10. And I'm nearly halfway through the first of those three weeks. 

All I have time for is to heal up from this past event and try to maintain some level of fitness while tapering for the next one! 

It seemed like such a great idea at the time...

---

The limping isn't from the general post-race soreness, it's the pulled calf/hamstring/whatever in my left leg, which is still angry with me. My doctor's appointment is next Tuesday. If it turns out that I have an injury that could be made worse (like an knee ligament tear) by running an ultramarathon on it, we can cancel the hotel reservation and maybe just drive up that day to volunteer. Also, if it feels the way it feels today come race day, it'd be a likely sufferfest with a possible DNF that I'd rather avoid. Been there, done that. I'm not giving up, mind you, just keeping a clear head about the situation.

Tough spot to be in Mark.  Do what you can until you have a discussion with the doctor.  I know as difficult as it will be you'll make the right choice if you have to.

A light kind of clicked on when I read your post today.  I'm putting the finishing touches on my marathon training plan.  The basic training plan is easy to plot out...it's the other events I want to do during training that are causing the uncertainty.  Do I taper?  How much?  Do I jump right back into marathon training?  I think the biggest question is, can I participate in these events at a less competitive level to make sure they don't disrupt marathon training.  Your experience has me thinking worrying...

A little worrying thinking is better at this point than somewhere in the middle of the plan. What I've seen people do is do a 1-week minitaper before an event that's not the main goal of the training cycle. Maybe that'd work for you. The tricky part is to balancing how much you want to compete in each of those secondary events.

If you can get your hand on the book Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger, there's a section in the back that talks about training plans for multiple marathons. That might offers some guidance. Also, some of Hal Higdon's marathon plans include training races at points in the main cycle. Maybe you can see how he balances those out.

There are lots of options, and I'm pretty sure you can balance it out.

Aside from common sense, Nancy, your RHR seems to be a really good indication of how things are going with you.

Mark B wrote:Update: I walked 1 mile during lunch yesterday, and 2 miles today. It was rough starting both days, but the calf/knee/whatever started to loosen up after about a third of a mile. When I got back to the office after 2 miles today, it *almost* felt normal.

Of course, I have to spend the rest of the afternoon sitting in my chair, which seems to aggravate it, so it'll probably tighten up the next time I stand up.

May I suggest the exercises for a sprained ankle, when sitting.  Flexion and extension, write the alphabet with your big toe, 10 circles to the left with both feet, then 10 circles to the right.

Been doing some of those, actually. I should do other PT work, too. I know it'll be suggested, so I may as well get started.

I was wondering what you'd heard from the doctor but then realized that your appointment is next week...

Hope you've been able to get in some walking or easy running in the meantime.  It's been HOT here so if you're out and about take care.

And thanks for the marathon training plan tips.  I do have most of Hal's old training plans and while I don't have Pete's book I do have several others along with info I've been able to find online.  I've been able to glean a lot of information and I'm OK with what I've come up with and also determined to listen to my body and stay flexible as I move forward.

Take care...

nkrichards wrote:I was wondering what you'd heard from the doctor but then realized that your appointment is next week...

Hope you've been able to get in some walking or easy running in the meantime.  It's been HOT here so if you're out and about take care.

And thanks for the marathon training plan tips.  I do have most of Hal's old training plans and while I don't have Pete's book I do have several others along with info I've been able to find online.  I've been able to glean a lot of information and I'm OK with what I've come up with and also determined to listen to my body and stay flexible as I move forward.

Take care...

Thanks, Nancy! I'll definitely be taking care.

My leg is nowhere near ready to test with a run. I still have regular pain after sitting. I've said repeatedly to myself that if it keeps feeling like this, there's no way I'd be able to run the 50K. Or want to, for that matter. I'm hoping the doctor has an answer, and fast, that fixes it. (But I'm not holding my breath.)

Glad I could help on the training ideas!

Have you iced it?  It has been a week since the 12 hour race, but it might help recovery.  15 minutes ice, 15 minutes heat...that sort of thing.

You're in a pickle.  No question.  If you don't do the race, and you volunteer, you could use the course to walk and rest your boo boo.

I hereby pass the "I'M INJURED.  Pity me or give me money." sign for a popular corner of the Couv.

ounce wrote:Have you iced it?  It has been a week since the 12 hour race, but it might help recovery.  15 minutes ice, 15 minutes heat...that sort of thing.

You're in a pickle.  No question.  If you don't do the race, and you volunteer, you could use the course to walk and rest your boo boo.

I hereby pass the "I'M INJURED.  Pity me or give me money." sign for a popular corner of the Couv.

All excellent ideas. Except the sign part, that is.

I did a simple one-legged hop test yesterday, just to see what happened.

Right leg (uninjured one): "Dum-de-dum... I could do this all day."

Left leg (injured one): "UHNNNHHH!"

Intense discomfort in a softball sized area deep in my "knee pit."

Doesn't bode well.

Mark B wrote:I did a simple one-legged hop test yesterday, just to see what happened.

Right leg (uninjured one): "Dum-de-dum... I could do this all day."

Left leg (injured one): "UHNNNHHH!"

Intense discomfort in a softball sized area deep in my "knee pit."

Doesn't bode well.

That doesn't sound good at all!

Curious what the doc will have to say but racing on the 10th doesn't look likely at this point...

nkrichards wrote:

Mark B wrote:I did a simple one-legged hop test yesterday, just to see what happened.

Right leg (uninjured one): "Dum-de-dum... I could do this all day."

Left leg (injured one): "UHNNNHHH!"

Intense discomfort in a softball sized area deep in my "knee pit."

Doesn't bode well.

That doesn't sound good at all!

Curious what the doc will have to say but racing on the 10th doesn't look likely at this point...

No, it does not. I'm waiting to hear what the doctor says before I take any action, but I'm prepared to drop from the race, cancel the hotel reservation and just drive up that morning to volunteer with Alita. It'll be a terrible disappointment, but it's out of my hands.

Knee pit - interesting term.  Sounds like lower hamstring to me.

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Knee pit - interesting term.  Sounds like lower hamstring to me.

It may well be. When the wheel of the water wagon pinned my heel to the ground just as I was starting the swing phase of my step forward, it yanked pretty much everything in the back of my leg from the heel to the pelvis. I've also had issues in my upper calf muscles and a weird unstable feeling in the knee. Sitting often makes it worse. Well, I hope I find something out tomorrow. The appointment is in the morning, so I'll let you know what I find out.

BTW, Alita and I walked 2 miles this evening. I had a little discomfort at the top of the calf, outside edge (and I see that's where one of the hamstrings attaches, so that's interesting). Walking was definitely enough for me. I'd rather play it safe right now.

Mark B wrote:

Michele \"1L" Keane wrote:Knee pit - interesting term.  Sounds like lower hamstring to me.

It may well be. When the wheel of the water wagon pinned my heel to the ground just as I was starting the swing phase of my step forward, it yanked pretty much everything in the back of my leg from the heel to the pelvis. I've also had issues in my upper calf muscles and a weird unstable feeling in the knee. Sitting often makes it worse. Well, I hope I find something out tomorrow. The appointment is in the morning, so I'll let you know what I find out.

BTW, Alita and I walked 2 miles this evening. I had a little discomfort at the top of the calf, outside edge (and I see that's where one of the hamstrings attaches, so that's interesting). Walking was definitely enough for me. I'd rather play it safe right now.

I'd remove the softball before you get to the doctor, as it may obstruct his view and fingers.

I'm going to predict that it is nothing that will require surgery.  You're inflamed out the wazoo, so it'll take 53% longer to heal than a 40 year old.  I'm sorry that you probably won't be able to do the 50K, but you'll get healed and become a terror to the trails and llamas, once again!  In the meantime, you'll get to coach Alita to her new goals and sherpa to your heart's content!!

The sign offer still stands.

Back from the doctor, and Dr. Ounce is pretty much on target.

He checked the knee ligaments and told me I have not "ruined" myself and that he does not think surgery is necessary.

That said, I'm definitely injured and definitely need PT. He's thinking a strained gastroc, but said a PT evaluation is needed to really nail it down. (I like that he's able to admit that. Not all doctors would. )

When it came to the race, he said it wouldn't kill me, but it'd quite likely hurt like hell and delay the recovery process. Since the muscles affected are the ones that stabilize and protect the knee, there'd be a higher risk of getting some other injury.

Putting it off a year would be the wiser option. He even suggested going up to volunteer. 

So there you have it. I think we all know what I should do.